DeRosa Traded to Indians

[Scarey]

<!--quoteo(post=40821:date=May 28 2009, 02:20 PM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ May 28 2009, 02:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->having the most talented hitters in your lineup as possible >>> having the most balanced lineup as possible<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


Are you saying DeRosa/Fuk/Johnson > Bradley/Fuk/Font?

[Coach]

<!--quoteo(post=40804:date=May 28 2009, 02:26 PM:name=Fella)-->QUOTE (Fella @ May 28 2009, 02:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->People also seem to completely ignore we had 2 or 3 lefties in the lineup every game against the Dodgers, it wasn't a completely right handed lineup that allowed the pitcher to settle in and do the same thing to every hitter, like I keep hearing. We had Edmonds, we had Fuk, Fontenot started one game, Z started one game, Fontenot was also available to start more if we wanted, Hoffpauir could have been on the roster if we wanted.

And what if we faced the Phillies or Mets who had a left handed ace? Its a cop out excuse, we were fine with our lineup in the regular season and it was fine in the postseason, we were 20 games over .500 against right handers in the regular season, so why was it all of the sudden a problem for those 3 games? We got a bad match up and our players panicked and shit the bed from the moment Loney's grand slam cleared the wall.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Absolutely

[Butcher]

<!--quoteo(post=40824:date=May 28 2009, 02:43 PM:name=Scarey)-->QUOTE (Scarey @ May 28 2009, 02:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=40821:date=May 28 2009, 02:20 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ May 28 2009, 02:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->having the most talented hitters in your lineup as possible >>> having the most balanced lineup as possible<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


Are you saying DeRosa/Fuk/Johnson > Bradley/Fuk/Font?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm saying DeRosa/Fuk/Bradley/Font > Miles/Fuk/Bradley/Font.

[Clapp]

<!--quoteo(post=40804:date=May 28 2009, 12:26 PM:name=Fella)-->QUOTE (Fella @ May 28 2009, 12:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->People also seem to completely ignore we had 2 or 3 lefties in the lineup every game against the Dodgers, it wasn't a completely right handed lineup that allowed the pitcher to settle in and do the same thing to every hitter, like I keep hearing. We had Edmonds, we had Fuk, Fontenot started one game, Z started one game, Fontenot was also available to start more if we wanted, Hoffpauir could have been on the roster if we wanted.

And what if we faced the Phillies or Mets who had a left handed ace? Its a cop out excuse, we were fine with our lineup in the regular season and it was fine in the postseason, we were 20 games over .500 against right handers in the regular season, so why was it all of the sudden a problem for those 3 games? We got a bad match up and our players panicked and shit the bed from the moment Loney's grand slam cleared the wall.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hamels and Santana are really the only two left-handers in the league that we're going to see in the playoffs, that are worth a damn anyway, and the lineup is already structured to beat them, or give us as good of a chance as anybody else can.

Webb, Haren, Billingsley, Gallardo, Wainwright, Carpenter, Vazquez, Peavy(when he's traded to an NL club), Volstad... on and on in this league.


And I still don't think I've seen anybody mention Hoffpauir in this argument. You all know he's getting all of this playing time in right and left field because DeRosa's gone right? The versatility has turned out to be a non-factor. Fontenot has played a fine 3rd base and Hoffpauir's played fine in the corner outfield spots. If Aramis didn't dislocate his shoulder, and Fontenot and Bradley had the stats that they will at the end of the year, people wouldn't be talking about this.

[leonardsipes]

<!--quoteo(post=40829:date=May 28 2009, 01:55 PM:name=Clapp)-->QUOTE (Clapp @ May 28 2009, 01:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->If Aramis didn't dislocate his shoulder, and Fontenot and Bradley had the stats that they will at the end of the year, people wouldn't be talking about this.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Yes, but that would not have made the move any smarter. There is no explanation that makes the move a good one.

[Butcher]

<!--quoteo(post=40830:date=May 28 2009, 03:05 PM:name=leonardsipes)-->QUOTE (leonardsipes @ May 28 2009, 03:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=40829:date=May 28 2009, 01:55 PM:name=Clapp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Clapp @ May 28 2009, 01:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->If Aramis didn't dislocate his shoulder, and Fontenot and Bradley had the stats that they will at the end of the year, people wouldn't be talking about this.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Yes, but that would not have made the move any smarter. There is no explanation that makes the move a good one.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yessir.

[BT]

<!--quoteo(post=40830:date=May 28 2009, 03:05 PM:name=leonardsipes)-->QUOTE (leonardsipes @ May 28 2009, 03:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=40829:date=May 28 2009, 01:55 PM:name=Clapp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Clapp @ May 28 2009, 01:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->If Aramis didn't dislocate his shoulder, and Fontenot and Bradley had the stats that they will at the end of the year, people wouldn't be talking about this.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Yes, but that would not have made the move any smarter. There is no explanation that makes the move a good one.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


Of course there is. You just don't agree with it.

Trade the 32 year old making 5 million coming off a career year, so you can afford the switch hitter with the ONE FUCKING THOUSAND OPS, and play the left hander at 2b who had a .900 OPS last year. You get one more lefty in the lineup, you get one more switch hitter in the lineup, you get 3 decent pitching prospects which can be flipped for something at the trading deadline (and one of which, incidently, may end up being our loogy before the year is out), and you don't give up any offense (in theory).

IF Fontenot hits anywhere near as well as last year, and IF Bradley comes close to his career norms, there is nothing wrong with this move.

See this is where I usually get into it with KB. It's when arguable moves somehow become clearly insane moves. You guys are all welcome to think it was a bad idea, and you can make a pretty decent case that it wasn't necessary. It's when you guys further imply that only a brain dead retard with a spike in his head would even consider this plan a viable one that you lose me. It's when you guys somehow assume that any idiot would realize a 31 year old who missed 13 games last year was an injury waiting to happen, you lose me (because everyone knows 31 year olds are 50/50 bets to dislocate their shoulders while diving for a ball). It's when you guys imply that because the lack of a solid left handed hitter wasn't the ONLY reason we lost last year's playoffs, that we don't need one now, you lose me.

It's a defensible plan. It might not be the one I would have chosen, but if everyone did their job, and the entire team didn't take an offensive shit down their legs, it could very well work.

[Clapp]

<!--quoteo(post=40836:date=May 28 2009, 02:28 PM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ May 28 2009, 02:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=40830:date=May 28 2009, 03:05 PM:name=leonardsipes)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (leonardsipes @ May 28 2009, 03:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=40829:date=May 28 2009, 01:55 PM:name=Clapp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Clapp @ May 28 2009, 01:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->If Aramis didn't dislocate his shoulder, and Fontenot and Bradley had the stats that they will at the end of the year, people wouldn't be talking about this.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Yes, but that would not have made the move any smarter. There is no explanation that makes the move a good one.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yessir.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The team did have to get more left-handed. You guys can believe otherwise all you want, but you need balance in a lineup. Unfortunately, trading DeRosa was the only one to really allow that to happen. I didn't like the move at first, but only because of his versatility to the ballclub, and that turned out to not matter one bit.
I'm not gonna explain all this anymore as I spent a good 2 hours writing about it last night. Have at it if you want.

[Fly]

<!--quoteo(post=40838:date=May 28 2009, 04:34 PM:name=Clapp)-->QUOTE (Clapp @ May 28 2009, 04:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=40836:date=May 28 2009, 02:28 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ May 28 2009, 02:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=40830:date=May 28 2009, 03:05 PM:name=leonardsipes)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (leonardsipes @ May 28 2009, 03:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=40829:date=May 28 2009, 01:55 PM:name=Clapp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Clapp @ May 28 2009, 01:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->If Aramis didn't dislocate his shoulder, and Fontenot and Bradley had the stats that they will at the end of the year, people wouldn't be talking about this.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Yes, but that would not have made the move any smarter. There is no explanation that makes the move a good one.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yessir.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The team did have to get more left-handed. You guys can believe otherwise all you want, but you need balance in a lineup. Unfortunately, trading DeRosa was the only one to really allow that to happen. I didn't like the move at first, but only because of his versatility to the ballclub, and that turned out to not matter one bit.
I'm not gonna explain all this anymore as I spent a good 2 hours writing about it last night. Have at it if you want.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

A balanced lineup is fine and dandy...if you have the pieces to make it balanced. To bring in players and plug them in simply because of their handedness doesn't make any sense. That's always been my qualm with the logic of "getting more lefthanded". I read into that a desire to make moves based on handedness above talent.

[Clapp]

<!--quoteo(post=40840:date=May 28 2009, 02:43 PM:name=FlyAtTheThigh)-->QUOTE (FlyAtTheThigh @ May 28 2009, 02:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=40838:date=May 28 2009, 04:34 PM:name=Clapp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Clapp @ May 28 2009, 04:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=40836:date=May 28 2009, 02:28 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ May 28 2009, 02:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=40830:date=May 28 2009, 03:05 PM:name=leonardsipes)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (leonardsipes @ May 28 2009, 03:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=40829:date=May 28 2009, 01:55 PM:name=Clapp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Clapp @ May 28 2009, 01:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->If Aramis didn't dislocate his shoulder, and Fontenot and Bradley had the stats that they will at the end of the year, people wouldn't be talking about this.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Yes, but that would not have made the move any smarter. There is no explanation that makes the move a good one.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yessir.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The team did have to get more left-handed. You guys can believe otherwise all you want, but you need balance in a lineup. Unfortunately, trading DeRosa was the only one to really allow that to happen. I didn't like the move at first, but only because of his versatility to the ballclub, and that turned out to not matter one bit.
I'm not gonna explain all this anymore as I spent a good 2 hours writing about it last night. Have at it if you want.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

A balanced lineup is fine and dandy...if you have the pieces to make it balanced. To bring in players and plug them in simply because of their handedness doesn't make any sense. That's always been my qualm with the logic of "getting more lefthanded". I read into that a desire to make moves based on handedness above talent.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I even said I didn't like the trade to get more left-handed. I didn't think getting rid of DeRosa's versatility just to get left-handed was a good enough excuse, but I do think we needed to get more left-handed. The main reason I didn't like the deal was because I didn't think we had anybody to play 3rd or backup the corner outfield spots. We do, and they're both very good hitters as well. Obviously it would be nice to have both DeRosa and Fontenot in the infield now with Aramis hurt, but it's an unpredictable injury and he's never had anything like this.

But yeah, obviously I wouldn't turn down 9 Albert Pujolses in my lineup to get in Joey Gathright for example, would never take it to an extreme like that.

[leonardsipes]

I am not saying the move is retarded. Just the reward (2 mil, not having to tell DeRosa he is not the starting 2bman) is not worth the risk (injury to 2b,3b,rf,lf or that Fontenot could not hack it as a starter).

[Butcher]

<!--quoteo(post=40837:date=May 28 2009, 03:31 PM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ May 28 2009, 03:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=40830:date=May 28 2009, 03:05 PM:name=leonardsipes)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (leonardsipes @ May 28 2009, 03:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=40829:date=May 28 2009, 01:55 PM:name=Clapp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Clapp @ May 28 2009, 01:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->If Aramis didn't dislocate his shoulder, and Fontenot and Bradley had the stats that they will at the end of the year, people wouldn't be talking about this.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Yes, but that would not have made the move any smarter. There is no explanation that makes the move a good one.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


Of course there is. You just don't agree with it.

Trade the 32 year old making 5 million coming off a career year, so you can afford the switch hitter with the ONE FUCKING THOUSAND OPS, and play the left hander at 2b who had a .900 OPS last year. You get one more lefty in the lineup, you get one more switch hitter in the lineup, you get 3 decent pitching prospects which can be flipped for something at the trading deadline (and one of which, incidently, may end up being our loogy before the year is out), and you don't give up any offense (in theory).

IF Fontenot hits anywhere near as well as last year, and IF Bradley comes close to his career norms, there is nothing wrong with this move.

See this is where I usually get into it with KB. It's when arguable moves somehow become clearly insane moves. You guys are all welcome to think it was a bad idea, and you can make a pretty decent case that it wasn't necessary. It's when you guys further imply that only a brain dead retard with a spike in his head would even consider this plan a viable one that you lose me. It's when you guys somehow assume that any idiot would realize a 31 year old who missed 13 games last year was an injury waiting to happen, you lose me (because everyone knows 31 year olds are 50/50 bets to dislocate their shoulders while diving for a ball). It's when you guys imply that because the lack of a solid left handed hitter wasn't the ONLY reason we lost last year's playoffs, that we don't need one now, you lose me.

It's a defensible plan. It might not be the one I would have chosen, but if everyone did their job, and the entire team didn't take an offensive shit down their legs, it could very well work.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's indefensible because we could've had all of the positive things listed, plus DeRosa. Unless you really believe we couldn't afford the extra $3M -- which seems preposterous to me.

[veryzer]

<!--quoteo(post=40838:date=May 28 2009, 03:34 PM:name=Clapp)-->QUOTE (Clapp @ May 28 2009, 03:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=40836:date=May 28 2009, 02:28 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ May 28 2009, 02:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=40830:date=May 28 2009, 03:05 PM:name=leonardsipes)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (leonardsipes @ May 28 2009, 03:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=40829:date=May 28 2009, 01:55 PM:name=Clapp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Clapp @ May 28 2009, 01:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->If Aramis didn't dislocate his shoulder, and Fontenot and Bradley had the stats that they will at the end of the year, people wouldn't be talking about this.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Yes, but that would not have made the move any smarter. There is no explanation that makes the move a good one.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yessir.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The team did have to get more left-handed. You guys can believe otherwise all you want, but you need balance in a lineup. Unfortunately, trading DeRosa was the only one to really allow that to happen. I didn't like the move at first, but only because of his versatility to the ballclub, and that turned out to not matter one bit.
I'm not gonna explain all this anymore as I spent a good 2 hours writing about it last night. Have at it if you want.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


absotutely.

[Butcher]

Remember the 2006 Cardinals? One LH hitter (Edmonds) and one switch hitter (Miles). Their lack of lefties didn't slow them down in the playoffs.

The 2005 White Sox? Two lefties (AJP -- who sucked that year, and Podsednik, who was OK) and one switch hitter (Carl Everett, who sucked). They were just as right-handed as we were the last two seasons, and they breezed through the playoffs.

You don't need balance. You need good hitting and pitching. Sure, it's nice to have a couple of lefties in there, but our "lack of balance" wasn't why the Dodgers destroyed us in the playoffs.

[savant]

Anyone that thinks that DeRosa was just going to gladly accept being a backup needs to step away from the crack pipe. Anyone that thinks that being accessible to the media, and saying what fans want to hear makes a player a team leader also needs to step away from the crack pipe. Right or wrong Hendry felt that Fontenot deserved to get the majority of the AB's at second with a pretty good righthanded platoon partner, he was also comfortable with Micah being the primary backup at the corners in the outfield.

The problem I have with the roster so far has been that we have been playing shorthanded all season because of the nagging injuries with people missing games, and not being dl'ed. Carrying pitchers in Patton and Cotts that are never being used in real game situations making an already weak bench non-existent. Lous handling of the bullpen has been laughable at best.