Obama-themed White Sox hats?

[Jody]

I participate in full contact origami on weekends so I could show you how. Just remember to stretch out first as this shit can get kind of crazy.

[HemisFear]

[http]http://www.cnbc.com/id/29163654[/http]

Great article with full references to support my case that things aren't nearly as bad as the government has been spinning it.

-Pay particular attention to the section titled Growth, where reference to GDP comparisons are made about the current state of affairs vs the 70's. A fact that I illustrated earlier at the start.

My thinking is that the source shouldn't be shunned considering CNBC is owned by GE, Immelt being on Obama's advisory board, and isn't "spinning" things in my side of the fence.

One disclaimer however, I am a GE shareholder.

"unlike anything we've seen since the Great Depression!"...... [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/jerkit.gif[/img]

[Butcher]

<!--quoteo(post=17818:date=Feb 13 2009, 01:23 PM:name=HemisFear)-->QUOTE (HemisFear @ Feb 13 2009, 01:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->[http]http://www.cnbc.com/id/29163654[/http]

Great article with full references to support my case that things aren't nearly as bad as the government has been spinning it.

-Pay particular attention to the section titled Growth, where reference to GDP comparisons are made about the current state of affairs vs the 70's. A fact that I illustrated earlier at the start.

My thinking is that the source shouldn't be shunned considering CNBC is owned by GE, Immelt being on Obama's advisory board, and isn't "spinning" things in my side of the fence.

One disclaimer however, I am a GE shareholder.

"unlike anything we've seen since the Great Depression!"...... [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/jerkit.gif[/img]<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Tell that to my 401(k). I've lost $25,000 in less than three months. Also, I walked through 300 North Michigan last weekend -- the shopping center across the street from Water Tower Place. It's sort of a "high-end" mall. 8 floors of shopping. Every single storefront is shut down except for Saks-Fifth and maybe one or two other places. I've never seen anything like it.

How many people do you know who have been laid off? My company has gone through several rounds of layoffs and we could be looking at more. Two people from my group were just canned -- including my supervisor.

Is your problem with the Great Depression quote that we aren't yet eating our leather belts? Are you not willing to admit that we're in a crisis? What is it going to take? Just how bad does it need to get? It seems like your political persuasion is clouding your judgment a little.

Granted, I wasn't around for the Great Depression, but this is *far* worse than anything I've lived through.

[HemisFear]

<!--quoteo(post=17824:date=Feb 13 2009, 01:52 PM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Feb 13 2009, 01:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Tell that to my 401(k). I've lost $25,000 in less than three months. Also, I walked through 300 North Michigan last weekend -- the shopping center across the street from Water Tower Place. It's sort of a "high-end" mall. 8 floors of shopping. Every single storefront is shut down except for Saks-Fifth and maybe one or two other places. I've never seen anything like it.

How many people do you know who have been laid off? My company has gone through several rounds of layoffs and we could be looking at more. Two people from my group were just canned -- including my supervisor.

Is your problem with the Great Depression quote that we aren't yet eating our leather belts? Are you not willing to admit that we're in a crisis? What is it going to take? Just how bad does it need to get? It seems like your political persuasion is clouding your judgment a little.

Granted, I wasn't around for the Great Depression, but this is *far* worse than anything I've lived through.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Butch, as with all things on items such as this you have to put this into historical perspective. The question I'm asking is not relative to my personal experience because our leadership isn't comparing this to their personal exprience they are comparing it to history itself. The statements used were "worse financial crisis since the Great Depression". If we use the most commonly used, and widely regarded economic indicators of GDP, Stock Market losses, inflation/deflation ratios, Jobless Claims we find that this is by the numbers, a pretty hard recession, but certainly no where near the worst we've seen in a couple of decades, let alone the Great Depression. So my conclusion is that as of today, and since this started back when Bear Stearns started the dominos falling, we are getting the wool pulled over our eyes.

Now, I will admit that I have no idea how deep this is going to get. I don't have a crystal ball that can magically tell me that everything is going to get all better, or going to get much worse. All I have is the data in front of me, common sense, my ability to reason, and what I'm being told by my peers and my leaders. From that, I can draw a conclusion that..things aren't quite as bad as people are making this out to be. Not yet at least, and CERTAINLY no where NEAR "as bad as we've seen since the Great Depression".

My grandfather who is still alive, at 92 years of age lived through the Great depression. I've spoken with him on this subject. He laughs whenever he hears people reference what we're going through, not because he is unsympathetic to it, but he smartly and calmly replies with items of wisdom such as this..."the day that you have to go away for 6 months at a time so that you can send your wife and children home every nickle you make so that they can all afford to live in a 1 room apartment, and you aren't selling off your furniture in order to feed your children, is the day that you'll know what we went through during that time". We have 7.6% unemployment and I'll grant you that it's increasing dramatically, but if you go back to the 80's and the 70's, both of which had vastly larger %'s of people out of work than TODAY, you begin to ask yourself 'is what I'm being told accurate?

To directly answer your questions however, my firm has laid off 15% of it's workforce. I currently have 1 friend who worked for Bear Stearns who lost his job, and no one else in my family nor of my friends have lost their jobs. This is indicative of most recessions. Advances and contractions in the economy is part of capitalism.

<b>My ultimate problem with this is that the data available to us does not reflect that in which we are being told by our leaders.</b> We are being told that "this <b>is</b> the greatest crisis that we've experienced since the great depression" when the numbers simply do not add up to that.

Now, perhaps people are saying well, it could get that bad, ok that's a fine arguement, but shouldn't the job of our president and his staff be to tell us the truth, and not spin the data so that a vast amount of preasure can be added to help pass a bill that less than 40% of American's polled agree with, and only 3 Republican party members can sign off on, ALL of which cite FEAR OF THE UNKOWN as the sole reason for their voting for the bill?

Something smells fishy to me. Then again, I'm the crazy cook that is buying up as much stock as I can right now too. If you listen to CNBC and Bloomberg you hear over and over again "stocks crashing!!@! personal wealth evaporating!!@!@ Market is plumetting 30%!!!"

What I'm seeing is stocks are on sale! 30% discounts on some of Americas greatest companies!!!! Limited time only!!!

Lastly, I do agree and side whole heartedly with the housing situation in the country. From Greenspan, to Clinton and Bush, an SEC that was completely asleep at the wheel, fraudulent lending institutions (Banks) that helped create CDO's, and Insurance companies that helped create a 600 trillion dollar derivatives debacle....overall....it's bad ... but I just don't buy...that it's nearly as bad as it's being spun....at least not right now and we're being told that it is that bad, right now. So of course I'm willing to admit that we have a crisis on our hands, but I also don't think that any rationale human being who actually dives into these numbers can believe in all fairness what we are being told, vs what is actually going on.

Then again, I'm also putting my money where my mouth is. So, we'll see soon enough.

[hPOD]

The topic of recession versus depression was a favorite of presidents Harry S. Truman and Ronald Reagan.

<i>“A recession is when your neighbor loses his job; a depression is when you lose yours.”</i>

Reagan, when on the presidential campaign trail in 1980, added: <i>“And recovery is when Jimmy Carter loses his.”</i>

My take, it's bad out there...really bad. It could get better and it could get worse...but right now, I see it getting worse. We turned a blind eye to what was going on out there, and a lot of us are guilty of this. From the insane housing prices, we watched as people who had never saved a dime in their lives got approved for exuberant mortgages, to the neighbor driving the shiny new car and having the house he just bought completely remodeled, all on credit. All the signs were there. We all saw what was going on, but we choose to ignore it. We threw logic out the window and just assumed it was on the up, and that no short cuts were being taken. This is the perfect reflection of baseball in the late 90's when HR totals went from 30-40 to the sudden boom of 60-70, seemingly overnight. Players who were once small were suddenly huge...and again, we ignored it. But deep down, we all knew. This is an age old story, but supposedly, Joseph P. Kennedy [1888-1969] knew that it was time to get out of the market in 1929 when his shoeshine boy began giving him stock tips.

Over the past 5 years, I've never had more people give me advice on real estate and stock markets, bond markets, etc...

Shoeshine boy indeed.

[Lance]

I've gotta say, I'm enjoying the alternative viewpoint.

It's fun to at least not have everyone lock step in one direction--right or wrong.

[HemisFear]

<!--quoteo(post=17838:date=Feb 13 2009, 02:49 PM:name=hPOD)-->QUOTE (hPOD @ Feb 13 2009, 02:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->The topic of recession versus depression was a favorite of presidents Harry S. Truman and Ronald Reagan.

<i>“A recession is when your neighbor loses his job; a depression is when you lose yours.”</i>

Reagan, when on the presidential campaign trail in 1980, added: <i>“And recovery is when Jimmy Carter loses his.”</i>

My take, it's bad out there...really bad. It could get better and it could get worse...but right now, I see it getting worse. We turned a blind eye to what was going on out there, and a lot of us are guilty of this. From the insane housing prices, we watched as people who had never saved a dime in their lives got approved for exuberant mortgages, to the neighbor driving the shiny new car and having the house he just bought completely remodeled, all on credit. All the signs were there. We all saw what was going on, but we choose to ignore it. We threw logic out the window and just assumed it was on the up, and that no short cuts were being taken. This is the perfect reflection of baseball in the late 90's when HR totals went from 30-40 to the sudden boom of 60-70, seemingly overnight. Players who were once small were suddenly huge...and again, we ignored it. But deep down, we all knew. This is an age old story, but supposedly, Joseph P. Kennedy [1888-1969] knew that it was time to get out of the market in 1929 when his shoeshine boy began giving him stock tips.

Over the past 5 years, I've never had more people give me advice on real estate and stock markets, bond markets, etc...

Shoeshine boy indeed.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

[img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/bow.gif[/img]

[BT]

Dude, I hope you are right. No one I know thinks you are.

-Your grandfathers quotes mean nothing, because no one has said we are AS BAD as 1933. No one. He had it much worse than us, and God willing, we won't come close to going through what he went through.

-Obama says IF WE DON'T DO ANYTHING, it could the worst SINCE the Great Depression. And your numbers comparing it to the other recessions is, again, worthless, since we won't know how bad things are right now, until the numbers come out 6 months from now. One of the hallmarks of a recession is that USUALLY by the time we figure out we are in one, we are usually already coming out of it. Doesn't seem to be the case this time.

-The idea that Obama is the only one badmouthing this situation IS COMPLETE AND UTTER HORSESHIT. Virtually everyone is saying this. Obama is NOT saying anything a vast majority of economists don't already agree with. Maybe they all have a liberal agenda, but I doubt it.

-I am in no way shocked or amazed that CNBC (who employ Kudlow) was able to find someone from the MOTHERFUCKING CATO INSTITUTE to badmouth Obama, and pooh pooh the recession. I can go find video of that fuckwit Sean Hannity explaining how great our economy was in September. Which leads me to...

-Obama isn't saying ANYTHING that Paulson and the rest of the Bush administration was fucking saying in October. Which makes the idea that this is some sort of partisan political stunt by Obama completely inoperative. They might all be wrong, but they are all saying the same fucking thing.


<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->What I'm seeing is stocks are on sale! 30% discounts on some of Americas greatest companies!!!! Limited time only!!!<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

That's exactly what Warren Buffet was saying. In September. How has that worked out for him?

<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->Now, perhaps people are saying well, it could get that bad, ok that's a fine arguement, but shouldn't the job of our president and his staff be to tell us the truth, and not spin the data so that a vast amount of preasure can be added to help pass a bill that less than 40% of American's polled agree with, and only 3 Republican party members can sign off on, ALL of which cite FEAR OF THE UNKOWN as the sole reason for their voting for the bill?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

This I find simply sad. Do you honestly believe the Republicans are voting "no" on this because they've done the math, and don't think it's a good idea? Honestly? They are voting no because they know it will go through anyway, and when the plans have problems (which they will), the Republicans can blame it all on the Democrats. Further, my guess is that Obama thinks he IS telling you the truth. Just because you don't agree with it, doesn't make it a lie.

I could go on, but my point remains. I hope to God that you are right. I don't think you are (and 800 more layoffs yesterday in my sector of the economy tells me you aren't), but it would be completely awesome if you were. I just can't believe that a downturn in the economy that has threatened virtually every financial institution in our country, has threatened to bankrupt the big 3 auto companies, will change the very structure of economy, and shows no sign of ending, can somehow be turned into a partisan political discussion. Or that you and the Cato institute think the answer is for Obama to blow sunshine up our asses.

[Butcher]

BT is smart.

[rok]

My main problem with this entire idea of stimulus is that it will take 2-3 years before any actual jobs will be created. Getting the TARP plan right is still my biggest concern at the moment, because whether people want to accept it or not, the economy lives and dies with the banking system. A sick banking system and overly levered financial industry led us into this mess. You fix that, and everything else falls into place: real estate, consumer confidence, and small business activity. I see the stimulus as mostly an added bonus to the TARP. The main focus shouldn't be on the stimulus IMO, and once again the media and politicians have it wrong.

[BT]

<!--quoteo(post=17866:date=Feb 13 2009, 03:40 PM:name=rok)-->QUOTE (rok @ Feb 13 2009, 03:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->My main problem with this entire idea of stimulus is that it will take 2-3 years before any actual jobs will be created. Getting the TARP plan right is still my biggest concern at the moment, because whether people want to accept it or not, the economy lives and dies with the banking system. A sick banking system and overly levered financial industry led us into this mess. You fix that, and everything else falls into place: real estate, consumer confidence, and small business activity. I see the stimulus as mostly an added bonus to the TARP. The main focus shouldn't be on the stimulus IMO, and once again the media and politicians have it wrong.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


But they are working on TARP. Apparently not doing a very good job, but they got at least 700 billion, and my guess is that they will get more. Probably more than the stimulus.

And I thought that many of the infrastructure programs in the stimulus bill could be creating jobs in as little as 3 months?

[hPOD]

<!--quoteo(post=17850:date=Feb 13 2009, 03:11 PM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Feb 13 2009, 03:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->This I find simply sad. Do you honestly believe the Republicans are voting "no" on this because they've done the math, and don't think it's a good idea? Honestly? They are voting no because they know it will go through anyway, and when the plans have problems (which they will), the Republicans can blame it all on the Democrats. Further, my guess is that Obama thinks he IS telling you the truth. Just because you don't agree with it, doesn't make it a lie.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

BT gets it, though I don't find someone elses opinions to be 'sad'.

You are 100% correct. The GOP has no upside of voting for this. When it comes to plans of this magnitude, it's guaranteed to be riddled with problems, and the republicans are banking on these problems in their bid to re-establish control of the Senate in 2 years. They will outline EVERY problem with it as it arises, and ride that to Senate control, if they have their way...all the while saying, "See, we didn't vote for it...we told you so!!! Now give us the senate back, plz!"

[savant]

Rok, is there any possible way for the banks to get healthy without stabilizing the housing market? To me it seems that the insane amount of toxic collateral that the banks are carrying is just going to continue to be an anchor pulling the banks down. In my line of work, there is absolutely no private work going on right now, we have a lot of contracts that are on hold because very few companies are able to secure financing. I am seeing quite a bit of government work (both State and Federal) bidding and letting, but it is down from previous years. That in conjunction with losing the normal 40% that comes from the private side adds up to a huge shit sandwich.

[HemisFear]

<!--quoteo(post=17850:date=Feb 13 2009, 03:11 PM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Feb 13 2009, 03:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->-Your grandfathers quotes mean nothing, because no one has said we are AS BAD as 1933. No one. He had it much worse than us, and God willing, we won't come close to going through what he went through.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

If we are to learn from the past, and make current comparisons that we are getting close to repeating that past, it makes perfect sense, and is fully qualified to learn from those whom have obtained wisdom from past similar expierences. To dismiss the president in which you defend so much who so flagrantly utilizes the word depression and then discard someone who lived through it, is foolhearted and silly.

<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->And your numbers comparing it to the other recessions is, again, worthless, since we won't know how bad things are right now, until the numbers come out 6 months from now. One of the hallmarks of a recession is that USUALLY by the time we figure out we are in one, we are usually already coming out of it. Doesn't seem to be the case this time.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Untrue!! While the findings of recessions on average do not typically come out until an average of 3 to 6 months later, lagging indicators such as accelerating unemployment figures do begin to trigger signals that the recession is drawing to a close. Not only are the STANDARD figures used by the same economists that you are using such as GDP, Unemployment, etc bring merit to my claim, but your arguement of 'worthless' without using similar proven metrics only lends further creedance to my stance. Either back up your arguements with examples AND data, or admit that your simply argueing your opinion.

<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->-The idea that Obama is the only one badmouthing this situation IS COMPLETE AND UTTER HORSESHIT. Virtually everyone is saying this. Obama is NOT saying anything a vast majority of economists don't already agree with. Maybe they all have a liberal agenda, but I doubt it.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I never said that Obama was the only one who is badmouthing the situation. I simply have quoted him and his poor utilization of fear as a tactic to motivate for policy change and then compared his campaign against the Bush administration for using that same tactic as a hypocritical comparison. I also flat out agreed that Bush and his cronies used fear as a motivating tactic as noted earlier. I'm not defending Bush, nor simply slamming Obama....I'm saying that overall both parties have used this tactic quite effectively and considering that Obama is citing "change" so much, I find it a dubious claim...at best...that he represents "change that we can believe in" when he is simply regurgitating the same methods used by one of the most hated presidents of all time.

<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->-I am in no way shocked or amazed that CNBC (who employ Kudlow) was able to find someone from the MOTHERFUCKING CATO INSTITUTE to badmouth Obama, and pooh pooh the recession. I can go find video of that fuckwit Sean Hannity explaining how great our economy was in September. Which leads me to...<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I referenced the fact that Immelt is the CEO of GE. I referenced the fact that Immelt is on Obama's financial advisory board. Immelt is a liberal. CNBC by and large is a well known liberal minded station and while I fully agree that Larry Kudlow is a well known conservative (and perma-bull) I think by and large we can come to the conclusion that Larry Kudlow's boss, is the one advising Obama, not Kuldo himself.

<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->-Obama isn't saying ANYTHING that Paulson and the rest of the Bush administration was fucking saying in October. Which makes the idea that this is some sort of partisan political stunt by Obama completely inoperative. They might all be wrong, but they are all saying the same fucking thing.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Again, note that I am not defending Bush nor Obama in this. I think of them both as typical politicians, and am not blown away by President Obama's ability to give a rousing speech, and then thinking him the savior of America simply because he has figured out how to address the American people as if he were giving a surmon to his church on Sunday. A wonderful public speaker .. yes...but a proven leader and representative of "change"...I think not....not yet anyway.

<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->That's exactly what Warren Buffet was saying. In September. How has that worked out for him?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

[img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif[/img] I love responses like this.

It is not the investors job to speculate on where the market is going today, tomorrow, or a year from now. It is the job of an investor to invest in solid companies, run by great managers, at a highly discounted price, with a relatively high margin of safety. - Benjamin Graham The Intellegent Investor

<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->This I find simply sad. Do you honestly believe the Republicans are voting "no" on this because they've done the math, and don't think it's a good idea? Honestly? They are voting no because they know it will go through anyway, and when the plans have problems (which they will), the Republicans can blame it all on the Democrats. Further, my guess is that Obama thinks he IS telling you the truth. Just because you don't agree with it, doesn't make it a lie.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

No what makes it a lie not my opinion..what makes it a lie is the numers. He's lying, or at minimum, SERIOUSLY framing his statements to suit his agenda, period. Bush did the same things. I've given you link after link, example after example, and yet your only arguement to support your case is your opinion, and THEN you give ME the song and dance about me not liking him and using it as fact? Pot meet Kettle.

<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->I could go on, but my point remains. I hope to God that you are right. I don't think you are (and 800 more layoffs yesterday in my sector of the economy tells me you aren't), but it would be completely awesome if you were. I just can't believe that a downturn in the economy that has threatened virtually every financial institution in our country, has threatened to bankrupt the big 3 auto companies, will change the very structure of economy, and shows no sign of ending, can somehow be turned into a partisan political discussion. Or that you and the Cato institute think the answer is for Obama to blow sunshine up our asses.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

-The big three auto companies are failing for two reasons that have been going on for DECADES...not recently. 1. Overpaid Executives 2. Unions (let's not get into the union discussion because I already know where that one will go)

-Change in the economy is part of the free market. Free Markets move as should move, up, down, sideways and back again. They grow, they overgrow, and then they contract...then they start growing again. Such is the very nature of the free market. If you would like a recommendation on a wonderful text to read on the subject, I would suggest The Wealth Of Nations - Adam Smith (wonderful but difficult read)

[BT]

<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->If we are to learn from the past, and make current comparisons that we are getting close to repeating that past, it makes perfect sense, and is fully qualified to learn from those whom have obtained wisdom from past similar expierences. To dismiss the president in which you defend so much who so flagrantly utilizes the word depression and then discard someone who lived through it, is foolhearted and silly.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

How can I put this so you will understand it? If NO ONE is arguing that things are AS BAD as the Great Depression, what does your Grandfather pointing out that it's not as bad as the Great Depression prove? No one is claiming we have 25 percent unemployment, so pointing out that we don't have 25 percent unemployment is useless. No one is claiming we have bread lines, so pointing out we had bread lines back then is useless. Defending that point makes me foolhearted and silly? Really?

<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->Either back up your arguements with examples AND data, or admit that your simply argueing your opinion.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am telling you I don't have the figures yet. I am telling you that while things that can be measured right now don't prove that things are worse than 82, my guess is that if you give it 6 months the WILL prove that. Your claim would be the equivalent of saying in June 1942 that WW2 wasn't as bad as WW1 because we had lost far fewer men. If you want me to admit that with the data we can see RIGHT NOW, that this data says we are better off than 82, fine, you win. But it's a victory of semantics.

<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->I'm saying that overall both parties have used this tactic quite effectively and considering that Obama is citing "change" so much, I find it a dubious claim...at best...that he represents "change that we can believe in" when he is simply regurgitating the same methods used by one of the most hated presidents of all time.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

You need to define your argument. Is your argument that Obama is a hypocrite because he is scaring people? Because if that's your argument, frankly I don't give a shit. That's a monumentally unimportant partisan argument. And it makes no difference to me if that is how you feel. If your argument is that the economy will be fine and Obama is LYING in order to scare people, I do give a shit. And that is why I keep telling you that everyone else is saying the same thing, include the Bush administration. Not to point out that Bush said it too, but rather to point out that Bush would not have been saying it, if the only reason to say it is to make Obama look good.

<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->I think of them both as typical politicians, and am not blown away by President Obama's ability to give a rousing speech, and then thinking him the savior of America simply because he has figured out how to address the American people as if he were giving a surmon to his church on Sunday.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Boilerplate right wing talking points (which are pretty irrelevant to the argument here), and to be honest, fairly offensive. He has been in office less than a month and I am already tired of being told I am a mindless dolt who falls for Obama's bullshit because he has a purty mouth. Sadly, I don't see that talking point going away any time soon.

<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->smile.gif I love responses like this.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

And why is that, exactly? The inference seems to be these responses are beneath you, but I'm not sure exactly what you mean, or how the quote you provided is pertinent? Your original point seemed to be that while we (the great brainwashed masses, mesmerized by the pretty talking President) run around saying the sky is falling, you are seeing OPPORTUNITY! I was simply pointing out how possibly the greatest investor of our lifetimes was saying much the same thing 6 months ago, and was proven categorically wrong. My guess is, had we had this argument 6 months ago, you would have THEN been telling us how we are overreacting.


<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->-Change in the economy is part of the free market. Free Markets move as should move, up, down, sideways and back again. They grow, they overgrow, and then they contract...then they start growing again. Such is the very nature of the free market. If you would like a recommendation on a wonderful text to read on the subject, I would suggest The Wealth Of Nations - Adam Smith (wonderful but difficult read)<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Thanks for the book of the month club tip (am I the only one who found the suggestion to "check out this Adam Smith guy" profoundly condescending?), but that quote could just as easily be applied to 1932-1942. I am quite sure that people like your grandfather would find the fact that Adam Smith says "change in the economy is part of the free market" cold comfort when they went to bed hungry every night. Adam Smith may be right, but I don't see how using the "shit happens" policy to run our economy is a particularly helpful insight right now.