<!--quoteo(post=17887:date=Feb 13 2009, 04:38 PM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Feb 13 2009, 04:38 PM)
<{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->How can I put this so you will understand it? If NO ONE is arguing that things are AS BAD as the Great Depression, what does your Grandfather pointing out that it's not as bad as the Great Depression prove? No one is claiming we have 25 percent unemployment, so pointing out that we don't have 25 percent unemployment is useless. No one is claiming we have bread lines, so pointing out we had bread lines back then is useless. Defending that point makes me foolhearted and silly? Really?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, this is where I'm getting annoyed. Obama is saying that it can get that bad, plain and simple. He's saying that in so many words, if we don't do something a "catostraphic financial event" is going to happen. Considering that the only catostraphic event we've had in the United States is the Great Depression (on relative levels) please tell me what other conclusion I can possibly draw from his statement? Not only that but he then immediately follows that up with using the Great Depression as a reference point in his arguements. Keep in mind that this is the most powerful and influential man in the free world....his words..every one of them, count. To say that he's not making a clear comparison of now and the potential of what we're going through to the Great Depression is about as partisan of an arguement as I can see. It just comes off as you chosing to dismiss the entirety of his statement and the severity of his words ONLY when it is convienient for your side of the arguement.
<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->I am telling you I don't have the figures yet. If you want me to admit that with the data we can see RIGHT NOW, that this data says we are better off than 82, fine, you win. But it's a victory of semantics.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First off, yes you do have the figures. Secondly we stared this entire discussion based on the fact that Obama was drawing CURRENT comparisons (as in today) as referenced to being likened to the Great Depression and even if you don't agree wiht that, at minimum, the worst crisis we've seen SINCE .. all of which...to date..are not true. Semantics are not the issue this was the entire point! Fear + Muffled Data = Obamanomics thus far.
<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->You need to define your argument. Is your argument that Obama is a hypocrite because he is scaring people? Because if that's your argument, frankly I don't give a shit. That's a monumentally unimportant partisan argument. And it makes no difference to me if that is how you feel.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, I am saying exactly that Obama is a hypocrite because he is scaring people while trumpeting the horns of "change" and "politics as usual in Washington". You don't give a shit because once again, convieniently it's time to trumpet the cause of the raging Democrat-demigod and point the finger at the guy behind you. From the start, I've pointed fingers at both Bush and Obama, while you have staunchy and vigorously defended Obama and pointed fingers at Bush....partisan arguement? Once again, Pot meet Kettle.
<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->Boilerplate right wing talking points (which are pretty irrelevant to the argument here), and to be honest, fairly offensive. He has been in office less than a month and I am already tired of being told I am a mindless dolt who falls for Obama's bullshit because he has a purty mouth. Sadly, I don't see that talking point going away any time soon.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He's my president too! He works for me, just as much as he works for you. I have a responsibility to challenge my leaders and question their methods, and so does every American. Furthermore when I see and hear a man go on for two years about how different he's goign to be and the change he's going to bring and then fill his cabinet with the same old Clinton staff from yester-year, preach to me about financial responsibility then appoint MULTIPLE people who simply forget to pay their taxes, I find it pretty hard to not at minimum question the very foundation of the campaign in which he got himself elected! Secondly, please dont lump me into the down south highly conservative, bible belt fundementalist christian Republican vantagepoint. Frankly, I don't trust government as a whole and am more than willing to criticise both parties because while I definately have conservative leanings on some items, I'm actually an Independant and as this thread has shown, I don't drink either parties coolaid and am willing to praise or toss under the bus either party based on what they DO and SAY.
<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->And why is that, exactly? The inference seems to be these responses are beneath you, but I'm not sure exactly what you mean, or how the quote you provided is pertinent? Your original point seemed to be that while we (the great brainwashed masses, mesmerized by the pretty talking President) run around saying the sky is falling, you are seeing OPPORTUNITY! I was simply pointing out how possibly the greatest investor of our lifetimes was saying much the same thing 6 months ago, and was proven categorically wrong. My guess is, had we had this argument 6 months ago, you would have THEN been telling us how we are overreacting.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The reference is that Buffett did the same thing in the 1970's & 1980's, and people just like you were saying the exact same things you just said about investments that he made at those times which dipped in the first year (sometimes even two). The truth of the American stock market is, everyone is an expert and you are an idiot! (as an ideology, not me calling you an idiot)
More than any other truth, Americans want you to do well, so long as they do better! Unfortunately I took this attitude when I got started, and after much reading, study, history lessons, personal loss and gain, I've realized that anytime I hear someone make a comment like that, just how short sighted (and I speak from plenty of personal exerience here) comments like that really are. So if I came off as it being beneath me as you say, it's only because I've been there, and had I not known better, would have drawn the same conclusions.
The best illustration of this that I can make is as follows: Americans as a culture, love to save as much as they can when times are bad (money is hard to come by, prices are at their lowest), and spend as much as they can when times are great (jobs & high pay are easy to come by and prices are at their highest). My conclusion is that we are ass backwards as a culture. I don't know about you, but I save regularly, spend more when times are tough, and save more/spend less when times are great. - The Ron
When is there a better time, assuming you have the capital to do so that is, to buy a car, clothing, or home then right now?
<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->Thanks for the book of the month club tip (am I the only one who found the suggestion to "check out this Adam Smith guy" profoundly condescending?), but that quote could just as easily be applied to 1932-1942. I am quite sure that people like your grandfather would find the fact that Adam Smith says "change in the economy is part of the free market" cold comfort when they went to bed hungry every night. Adam Smith may be right, but I don't see how using the "shit happens" policy to run our economy is a particularly helpful insight right now.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So when I offer yet another source for information, Adam Smith is after all the father of capitalism, and quite possibly the greatest text I can offer you (which was offered to me by someone I greatly admire...not a book club), extend to you knowledge is power....the "open minded" liberal slaps it away and then plays the victim .... nah...thats not par for the course or anything.
That book was published in 1776, and trust me when I say that his vantage point had not a shred of political leaning either way to it.
I'll leave you with one last thought...
Our country when founded was not run by lawyers as it is today. It was run by military men, farmers, businessmen, bankers, college professors, etc. The greatest two things that they (in my personal opinion) left us was this:
1. Government should be able to change
2. Government should always be challenged to ensure that when change is necissary, it happens.
A government of the people, by the people, for the people....run by nary 1/10th lawyers.....now THAT is "Change I can believe in".
