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<!--quoteo(post=32808:date=Apr 24 2009, 07:22 AM:name=veryzer)-->QUOTE (veryzer @ Apr 24 2009, 07:22 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->pulling zambrano for marmol was not the wrong move. he did that all season with success.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think it was one of the all time bonehead moves in the history. He did not pull Zambrano for a pinch hitter (Z had batted the inning before w/ runners on 2nd & 3rd with 2 out) and Z was not tired. He had only pitched 6 innings 85 pitches and was dominating. He pulled Zambrano to save him for game 4.
The offense was shitting the bed, Zambrano was the only Cub on the field who looked like he belonged in the playoffs and Lou took him out of a one one tie.
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<!--quoteo(post=32850:date=Apr 24 2009, 01:10 PM:name=leonardsipes)-->QUOTE (leonardsipes @ Apr 24 2009, 01:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=32808:date=Apr 24 2009, 07:22 AM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Apr 24 2009, 07:22 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->pulling zambrano for marmol was not the wrong move. he did that all season with success.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think it was one of the all time bonehead moves in the history. He did not pull Zambrano for a pinch hitter (Z had batted the inning before w/ runners on 2nd & 3rd with 2 out) and Z was not tired. He had only pitched 6 innings 85 pitches and was dominating. He pulled Zambrano to save him for game 4.
The offense was shitting the bed, Zambrano was the only Cub on the field who looked like he belonged in the playoffs and Lou took him out of a one one tie.
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what if he leaves zambrano in and he gives up the two run home run? pulling zambrano wasn't the wrong move just as leaving him in wouldn't have been the wrong move. shit happens. if lou pulls zambrano for wuertz or ohman, then we have a bitch. pulling him for the best young reliver in baseball? thats not a bad move.
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More importantly, even if you concede it was the wrong move (I don't think it was, and it certainly wasn't the bonehead move of all time), how was leaving Zambrano in the game going to get the Cubs another run? If if all of the critics of that move are right, the fact is, the Cubs still couldn't score. All leaving Zambrano in the game would have done was possibly insure extra innings. Which we still probably would have lost, since we didn't come close to generating anything the last 3 innings.
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I like Lou, I don't blame the playoff losses on him, but pulling Zambrano was undoubtedly the wrong move, sorry. If you have a pitcher who is dominating with a low pitch count and has only gone 6 innings in a tie game, you don't take him out. Its not a "hindsight" type of criticism its just baseball common sense. No one takes a pitcher out pitching like that in that situation, it shouldn't have even been considered. The instant it happened, I said "what the fuck?" out loud.
That said, we still didn't score runs and it may not have mattered anyway. I really like Lou, I think he is a good manager for this team, he has made some knee-jerk moves early on this season though, so I hope he settles down.
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Lou managed game 1 of that series while looking ahead to game 4. That's a huge mistake in the postseason.
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<!--quoteo(post=32857:date=Apr 24 2009, 01:38 PM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Apr 24 2009, 01:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Lou managed game 1 of that series while looking ahead to game 4. That's a huge mistake in the postseason.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
but as bt pointed out, it didn't matter, because the cubs couldn't score another run anyway.
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<!--quoteo(post=32858:date=Apr 24 2009, 02:32 PM:name=veryzer)-->QUOTE (veryzer @ Apr 24 2009, 02:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=32857:date=Apr 24 2009, 01:38 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Apr 24 2009, 01:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Lou managed game 1 of that series while looking ahead to game 4. That's a huge mistake in the postseason.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
but as bt pointed out, it didn't matter, because the cubs couldn't score another run anyway.
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Lou didn't know that the Cubs weren't going to score again -- the result doesn't justify the decision. If the Cubs scored 50 runs after he pulled Zambrano, it still would've been a mistake.
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<!--quoteo(post=32857:date=Apr 24 2009, 01:38 PM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Apr 24 2009, 01:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Lou managed game 1 of that series while looking ahead to game 4. That's a huge mistake in the postseason.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm of two minds on this, and here's why: Dusty did the exact opposite with Mark Prior in Game 2 of the you-know-what series. If you recall, we had an 8-0 lead after 3 innings, and I was thinking to myself, "I wonder if Dusty is thinking of pulling his young pitcher early, to save him for later in the series?"
After the 5th inning, it was freaking 11-0, and I thought <i>for sure</i> he'd pull Prior. No sir.
Then Prior, showing some fatigue, gives up a couple of runs. We get one back, so it's 12-2. But again, Prior comes out to pitch another inning. (at the time, I was incredulous.)
Finally, two innings later, a few batters into the <b>8th</b> inning, with Prior clearly gassed, Dusty pulls him from a 12-2 game.
Could Prior have benefitted from being rested in Game 6? Is there any doubt?
As a manager, you're trying to win the game, yes. But you'd be foolish to not be cognizant that you have to win the <i>series</i>, too.
There's nothing better than to realize that the good things about youth don't end with youth itself. It's a matter of realizing that life can be renewed every day you get out of bed without baggage. It's tough to get there, but it's better than the dark thoughts. -Lance
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<!--quoteo(post=32860:date=Apr 24 2009, 02:42 PM:name=KBwsb)-->QUOTE (KBwsb @ Apr 24 2009, 02:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=32857:date=Apr 24 2009, 01:38 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Apr 24 2009, 01:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Lou managed game 1 of that series while looking ahead to game 4. That's a huge mistake in the postseason.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm of two minds on this, and here's why: Dusty did the exact opposite with Mark Prior in Game 2 of the you-know-what series. If you recall, we had an 8-0 lead after 3 innings, and I was thinking to myself, "I wonder if Dusty is thinking of pulling his young pitcher early, to save him for later in the series?"
After the 5th inning, it was freaking 11-0, and I thought <i>for sure</i> he'd pull Prior. No sir.
Then Prior, showing some fatigue, gives up a couple of runs. We get one back, so it's 12-2. But again, Prior comes out to pitch another inning. (at the time, I was incredulous.)
Finally, two innings later, a few batters into the <b>8th</b> inning, with Prior clearly gassed, Dusty pulls him from a 12-2 game.
Could Prior have benefitted from being rested in Game 6? Is there any doubt?
As a manager, you're trying to win the game, yes. But you'd be foolish to not be cognizant that you have to win the <i>series</i>, too.
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That isn't really even close to the same scenario. I think it would've been fine to let Prior go 5, qualify for the win, and then pull him there. With a 11-0 lead, it's a no-brainer.
The AZ game was 1-1.
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<!--quoteo(post=32861:date=Apr 24 2009, 02:50 PM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Apr 24 2009, 02:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=32860:date=Apr 24 2009, 02:42 PM:name=KBwsb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KBwsb @ Apr 24 2009, 02:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=32857:date=Apr 24 2009, 01:38 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Apr 24 2009, 01:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Lou managed game 1 of that series while looking ahead to game 4. That's a huge mistake in the postseason.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm of two minds on this, and here's why: Dusty did the exact opposite with Mark Prior in Game 2 of the you-know-what series. If you recall, we had an 8-0 lead after 3 innings, and I was thinking to myself, "I wonder if Dusty is thinking of pulling his young pitcher early, to save him for later in the series?"
After the 5th inning, it was freaking 11-0, and I thought <i>for sure</i> he'd pull Prior. No sir.Then Prior, showing some fatigue, gives up a couple of runs. We get one back, so it's 12-2. But again, Prior comes out to pitch another inning. (at the time, I was incredulous.)
Finally, two innings later, a few batters into the <b>8th</b> inning, with Prior clearly gassed, Dusty pulls him from a 12-2 game.
Could Prior have benefitted from being rested in Game 6? Is there any doubt?
As a manager, you're trying to win the game, yes. But you'd be foolish to not be cognizant that you have to win the <i>series</i>, too.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->That isn't really even close to the same scenario. I think it would've been fine to let Prior go 5, qualify for the win, and then pull him there. With a 11-0 lead, it's a no-brainer. The AZ game was 1-1.
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Yeah, but it's the same concept: it's "thinking ahead."
As Cub fans, of course we lost on both sides of the spectrum.
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i still don't see how putting marmol into a game after the 6th inning could ever be the wrong move. if he was putting in some scrub, i could see it, but not marmol.
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<!--quoteo(post=32864:date=Apr 24 2009, 02:56 PM:name=veryzer)-->QUOTE (veryzer @ Apr 24 2009, 02:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->i still don't see how putting marmol into a game after the 6th inning could ever be the wrong move. if he was putting in some scrub, i could see it, but not marmol.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why would you ever pull your best starter in a tie playoff game after 6 innings and 85 pitches? If we had a big lead, then you put in Howry (he was actually good that year). If we had a small lead (one or two runs), you leave Z in for one more inning and THEN put Marmol in.
It was a mistake, any way you slice it.
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I hated the move the instant it happened. Z wasn't gassed, he was totally dealing and the only reason to take him out was for a game 4 that may or may not have happened. Marmol could have been brought in the 8th or 9th or whenever Z was done. It was stupidity plain and simple as far as I'm concerned. It still didn't cost us the series though.
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<!--quoteo(post=32866:date=Apr 24 2009, 03:04 PM:name=Sandberg)-->QUOTE (Sandberg @ Apr 24 2009, 03:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I hated the move the instant it happened. Z wasn't gassed, he was totally dealing and the only reason to take him out was for a game 4 that may or may not have happened. Marmol could have been brought in the 8th or 9th or whenever Z was done. It was stupidity plain and simple as far as I'm concerned. It still didn't cost us the series though.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not saying it cost us the series...but it was still a bad move.
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<!--quoteo(post=32866:date=Apr 24 2009, 03:04 PM:name=Sandberg)-->QUOTE (Sandberg @ Apr 24 2009, 03:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I hated the move the instant it happened. Z wasn't gassed, he was totally dealing and the only reason to take him out was for a game 4 that may or may not have happened. Marmol could have been brought in the 8th or 9th or whenever Z was done. It was stupidity plain and simple as far as I'm concerned. It still didn't cost us the series though.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We were so shocked when he pulled Z that we were afraid he was hurt, because we knew his pitch count was low. When I heard Lou did it to rest him for his next game I was pissed.
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