Piniella has to be canned

[SandbergMVP1984]

<!--quoteo(post=47604:date=Jul 2 2009, 06:46 AM:name=ruby23)-->QUOTE (ruby23 @ Jul 2 2009, 06:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=47591:date=Jul 1 2009, 11:27 PM:name=PcB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PcB @ Jul 1 2009, 11:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->So, Piniella showed his "fire" and "passion" tonight by getting tossed. Does that help the people that want him canned?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
After the stats BT listed, I don't think there should be a camp that wants him canned (even though I was part of that clan).
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I still think he should be canned. You have a bunch of teams that were horrible (the vast majority of teams that change managers) with a few who were under performing. What if there were only 10 teams that were favorites to either win or content for their division/league title and 7 teams that turned it around were part of that group? Then you have a 70% chance of turning it around. (Obviously I'm making that up, but the story was used to show that the stat as given is almost irrelevant)

The point is, if a competent replacement is found, would we really be worse off? I don't think so.

[Coldneck]

<!--quoteo(post=47620:date=Jul 2 2009, 10:12 AM:name=Sandberg)-->QUOTE (Sandberg @ Jul 2 2009, 10:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=47604:date=Jul 2 2009, 06:46 AM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Jul 2 2009, 06:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=47591:date=Jul 1 2009, 11:27 PM:name=PcB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PcB @ Jul 1 2009, 11:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->So, Piniella showed his "fire" and "passion" tonight by getting tossed. Does that help the people that want him canned?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
After the stats BT listed, I don't think there should be a camp that wants him canned (even though I was part of that clan).
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I still think he should be canned. You have a bunch of teams that were horrible (the vast majority of teams that change managers) with a few who were under performing. What if there were only 10 teams that were favorites to either win or content for their division/league title and 7 teams that turned it around were part of that group? Then you have a 70% chance of turning it around. (Obviously I'm making that up, but the story was used to show that the stat as given is almost irrelevant)

The point is, if a competent replacement is found, would we really be worse off? I don't think so.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Please tell what competant replacement could be found at mid-season. If your answer is Ryno, please explain why he would be a good choice because I'm not sure that he is.

[SandbergMVP1984]

<!--quoteo(post=47621:date=Jul 2 2009, 09:16 AM:name=Coldneck)-->QUOTE (Coldneck @ Jul 2 2009, 09:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=47620:date=Jul 2 2009, 10:12 AM:name=Sandberg)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sandberg @ Jul 2 2009, 10:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=47604:date=Jul 2 2009, 06:46 AM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Jul 2 2009, 06:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=47591:date=Jul 1 2009, 11:27 PM:name=PcB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PcB @ Jul 1 2009, 11:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->So, Piniella showed his "fire" and "passion" tonight by getting tossed. Does that help the people that want him canned?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
After the stats BT listed, I don't think there should be a camp that wants him canned (even though I was part of that clan).
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I still think he should be canned. You have a bunch of teams that were horrible (the vast majority of teams that change managers) with a few who were under performing. What if there were only 10 teams that were favorites to either win or content for their division/league title and 7 teams that turned it around were part of that group? Then you have a 70% chance of turning it around. (Obviously I'm making that up, but the story was used to show that the stat as given is almost irrelevant)

The point is, if a competent replacement is found, would we really be worse off? I don't think so.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Please tell what competant replacement could be found at mid-season. If your answer is Ryno, please explain why he would be a good choice because I'm not sure that he is.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I should have said, "I still think he should be canned if they can find a competent replacement." Who would that be? No idea. My main point was that the stat given doesn't really prove anything.

[BT]

<!--quoteo(post=47662:date=Jul 2 2009, 12:28 PM:name=Sandberg)-->QUOTE (Sandberg @ Jul 2 2009, 12:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=47621:date=Jul 2 2009, 09:16 AM:name=Coldneck)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coldneck @ Jul 2 2009, 09:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=47620:date=Jul 2 2009, 10:12 AM:name=Sandberg)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sandberg @ Jul 2 2009, 10:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=47604:date=Jul 2 2009, 06:46 AM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Jul 2 2009, 06:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=47591:date=Jul 1 2009, 11:27 PM:name=PcB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PcB @ Jul 1 2009, 11:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->So, Piniella showed his "fire" and "passion" tonight by getting tossed. Does that help the people that want him canned?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
After the stats BT listed, I don't think there should be a camp that wants him canned (even though I was part of that clan).
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I still think he should be canned. You have a bunch of teams that were horrible (the vast majority of teams that change managers) with a few who were under performing. What if there were only 10 teams that were favorites to either win or content for their division/league title and 7 teams that turned it around were part of that group? Then you have a 70% chance of turning it around. (Obviously I'm making that up, but the story was used to show that the stat as given is almost irrelevant)

The point is, if a competent replacement is found, would we really be worse off? I don't think so.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Please tell what competant replacement could be found at mid-season. If your answer is Ryno, please explain why he would be a good choice because I'm not sure that he is.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I should have said, "I still think he should be canned if they can find a competent replacement." Who would that be? No idea. My main point was that the stat given doesn't really prove anything.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

The fact that canning the manager didn't result in a playoff run ONE HUNDRED AND TWELVE TIMES out 119 doesn't prove anything? What in God's name would constitute "proof" in your view?

[rok]

<!--quoteo(post=47664:date=Jul 2 2009, 12:40 PM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Jul 2 2009, 12:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=47662:date=Jul 2 2009, 12:28 PM:name=Sandberg)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sandberg @ Jul 2 2009, 12:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=47621:date=Jul 2 2009, 09:16 AM:name=Coldneck)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coldneck @ Jul 2 2009, 09:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=47620:date=Jul 2 2009, 10:12 AM:name=Sandberg)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sandberg @ Jul 2 2009, 10:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=47604:date=Jul 2 2009, 06:46 AM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Jul 2 2009, 06:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=47591:date=Jul 1 2009, 11:27 PM:name=PcB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PcB @ Jul 1 2009, 11:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->So, Piniella showed his "fire" and "passion" tonight by getting tossed. Does that help the people that want him canned?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
After the stats BT listed, I don't think there should be a camp that wants him canned (even though I was part of that clan).
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I still think he should be canned. You have a bunch of teams that were horrible (the vast majority of teams that change managers) with a few who were under performing. What if there were only 10 teams that were favorites to either win or content for their division/league title and 7 teams that turned it around were part of that group? Then you have a 70% chance of turning it around. (Obviously I'm making that up, but the story was used to show that the stat as given is almost irrelevant)

The point is, if a competent replacement is found, would we really be worse off? I don't think so.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Please tell what competant replacement could be found at mid-season. If your answer is Ryno, please explain why he would be a good choice because I'm not sure that he is.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I should have said, "I still think he should be canned if they can find a competent replacement." Who would that be? No idea. My main point was that the stat given doesn't really prove anything.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

The fact that canning the manager didn't result in a playoff run ONE HUNDRED AND TWELVE TIMES out 119 doesn't prove anything? What in God's name would constitute "proof" in your view?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, this is hardly something scientific we're talking about. Each case is unique and there are so many moving parts to every team, so you'd be hard-pressed to prove/disprove anything when it comes to manager firings.

[SandbergMVP1984]

<!--quoteo(post=47664:date=Jul 2 2009, 12:40 PM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Jul 2 2009, 12:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=47662:date=Jul 2 2009, 12:28 PM:name=Sandberg)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sandberg @ Jul 2 2009, 12:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=47621:date=Jul 2 2009, 09:16 AM:name=Coldneck)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coldneck @ Jul 2 2009, 09:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=47620:date=Jul 2 2009, 10:12 AM:name=Sandberg)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sandberg @ Jul 2 2009, 10:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=47604:date=Jul 2 2009, 06:46 AM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Jul 2 2009, 06:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=47591:date=Jul 1 2009, 11:27 PM:name=PcB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PcB @ Jul 1 2009, 11:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->So, Piniella showed his "fire" and "passion" tonight by getting tossed. Does that help the people that want him canned?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
After the stats BT listed, I don't think there should be a camp that wants him canned (even though I was part of that clan).
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I still think he should be canned. You have a bunch of teams that were horrible (the vast majority of teams that change managers) with a few who were under performing. What if there were only 10 teams that were favorites to either win or content for their division/league title and 7 teams that turned it around were part of that group? Then you have a 70% chance of turning it around. (Obviously I'm making that up, but the story was used to show that the stat as given is almost irrelevant)

The point is, if a competent replacement is found, would we really be worse off? I don't think so.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Please tell what competant replacement could be found at mid-season. If your answer is Ryno, please explain why he would be a good choice because I'm not sure that he is.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I should have said, "I still think he should be canned if they can find a competent replacement." Who would that be? No idea. My main point was that the stat given doesn't really prove anything.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

The fact that canning the manager didn't result in a playoff run ONE HUNDRED AND TWELVE TIMES out 119 doesn't prove anything? What in God's name would constitute "proof" in your view?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is a spectrum of talent on baseball teams. But let's put them into 3 buckets of shitty talent, average talent, and above average talent. I would assume that the vast majority of the teams changing their manager in the middle of the season fall into the shitty talent bucket. They are skewing the results.

The Cubs, on the other hand, have above average talent. This likely constitutes a very small percentage of teams that change managers in the middle of a season.

For the statistic to be meaningful, you would need to analyze the number of above average talent teams that changed managers in the middle of the season and then see how many of them made the playoffs. Otherwise you're comparing apples to oranges.

[PcB]

<!--quoteo(post=47688:date=Jul 2 2009, 02:25 PM:name=Sandberg)-->QUOTE (Sandberg @ Jul 2 2009, 02:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=47664:date=Jul 2 2009, 12:40 PM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Jul 2 2009, 12:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=47662:date=Jul 2 2009, 12:28 PM:name=Sandberg)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sandberg @ Jul 2 2009, 12:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=47621:date=Jul 2 2009, 09:16 AM:name=Coldneck)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coldneck @ Jul 2 2009, 09:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=47620:date=Jul 2 2009, 10:12 AM:name=Sandberg)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sandberg @ Jul 2 2009, 10:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=47604:date=Jul 2 2009, 06:46 AM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Jul 2 2009, 06:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=47591:date=Jul 1 2009, 11:27 PM:name=PcB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PcB @ Jul 1 2009, 11:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->So, Piniella showed his "fire" and "passion" tonight by getting tossed. Does that help the people that want him canned?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
After the stats BT listed, I don't think there should be a camp that wants him canned (even though I was part of that clan).
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I still think he should be canned. You have a bunch of teams that were horrible (the vast majority of teams that change managers) with a few who were under performing. What if there were only 10 teams that were favorites to either win or content for their division/league title and 7 teams that turned it around were part of that group? Then you have a 70% chance of turning it around. (Obviously I'm making that up, but the story was used to show that the stat as given is almost irrelevant)

The point is, if a competent replacement is found, would we really be worse off? I don't think so.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Please tell what competant replacement could be found at mid-season. If your answer is Ryno, please explain why he would be a good choice because I'm not sure that he is.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I should have said, "I still think he should be canned if they can find a competent replacement." Who would that be? No idea. My main point was that the stat given doesn't really prove anything.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

The fact that canning the manager didn't result in a playoff run ONE HUNDRED AND TWELVE TIMES out 119 doesn't prove anything? What in God's name would constitute "proof" in your view?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is a spectrum of talent on baseball teams. But let's put them into 3 buckets of shitty talent, average talent, and above average talent. I would assume that the vast majority of the teams changing their manager in the middle of the season fall into the shitty talent bucket. They are skewing the results.

The Cubs, on the other hand, have above average talent. This likely constitutes a very small percentage of teams that change managers in the middle of a season.

For the statistic to be meaningful, you would need to analyze the number of above average talent teams that changed managers in the middle of the season and then see how many of them made the playoffs. Otherwise you're comparing apples to oranges.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I actually completely agree with this, although I still don't want Lou canned.

[leonardsipes]

The real question is, does the act of canning the manager, fire up the team and make them play better. I doubt it. Unless the players hate lou, and it has a negative effect on performance, it would be a mistake to fire him.

[BackyardLegend]

Today is exactly the reason why Piniella needs to be canned. Are you fucking kidding me? Leading Soriano off again?

I bet we don't see Fuld again for a week. Not that Sam is the savior, but fuck--he puts together four solid at bats last night during a Cubs win, and we bench him the next day in favor of the worst leadoff hitter of all time.

I was at the game last night, and was so excited to see a lineup that appeared to work. I didn't have to worry about that leadoff whiff. Today I am again sickened.

[Baron]

<!--quoteo(post=47874:date=Jul 3 2009, 03:51 PM:name=BackyardLegend)-->QUOTE (BackyardLegend @ Jul 3 2009, 03:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Today is exactly the reason why Piniella needs to be canned. Are you fucking kidding me? Leading Soriano off again?

I bet we don't see Fuld again for a week. Not that Sam is the savior, but fuck--he puts together four solid at bats last night during a Cubs win, and we bench him the next day in favor of the worst leadoff hitter of all time.

I was at the game last night, and was so excited to see a lineup that appeared to work. I didn't have to worry about that leadoff whiff. Today I am again sickened.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We won. And Sam Fuld is a AAAA player, not playing him is not grounds for firing.

[Ace]

<!--quoteo(post=47888:date=Jul 3 2009, 05:45 PM:name=Baron)-->QUOTE (Baron @ Jul 3 2009, 05:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=47874:date=Jul 3 2009, 03:51 PM:name=BackyardLegend)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BackyardLegend @ Jul 3 2009, 03:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Today is exactly the reason why Piniella needs to be canned. Are you fucking kidding me? Leading Soriano off again?

I bet we don't see Fuld again for a week. Not that Sam is the savior, but fuck--he puts together four solid at bats last night during a Cubs win, and we bench him the next day in favor of the worst leadoff hitter of all time.

I was at the game last night, and was so excited to see a lineup that appeared to work. I didn't have to worry about that leadoff whiff. Today I am again sickened.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We won. And Sam Fuld is a AAAA player, not playing him is not grounds for firing.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I would have kept playing him until he stopped being awesome.

[Baron]

<!--quoteo(post=47890:date=Jul 3 2009, 04:46 PM:name=Ace)-->QUOTE (Ace @ Jul 3 2009, 04:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=47888:date=Jul 3 2009, 05:45 PM:name=Baron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Baron @ Jul 3 2009, 05:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=47874:date=Jul 3 2009, 03:51 PM:name=BackyardLegend)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BackyardLegend @ Jul 3 2009, 03:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Today is exactly the reason why Piniella needs to be canned. Are you fucking kidding me? Leading Soriano off again?

I bet we don't see Fuld again for a week. Not that Sam is the savior, but fuck--he puts together four solid at bats last night during a Cubs win, and we bench him the next day in favor of the worst leadoff hitter of all time.

I was at the game last night, and was so excited to see a lineup that appeared to work. I didn't have to worry about that leadoff whiff. Today I am again sickened.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We won. And Sam Fuld is a AAAA player, not playing him is not grounds for firing.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I would have kept playing him until he stopped being awesome.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe in CF, but Soriano is not going to right himself on the bench.

[BackyardLegend]

Podsednik was a AAAA player (could be argued that he still is)--but he has gotten it done.

I mean seriously, batting Soriano first game after game after game. It's ridiculous. Why can't he be moved down in the order--because he doesn't feel comfortable anywhere else? Because he'll see worse pitches? Bullshit.

Honestly, I would love for all this to workout this season. I'd love to see us making a charge to win the division. And while it's nice to win some big games here against the Brewers, you have to be delusional to think that the Cubs can take this division and more importantly, win playoff games with Soriano as it's leadoff hitter.

Until I see Piniella either bench Soriano or move him down in the order, I will question him.

[Ace]

<!--quoteo(post=47893:date=Jul 3 2009, 05:48 PM:name=Baron)-->QUOTE (Baron @ Jul 3 2009, 05:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=47890:date=Jul 3 2009, 04:46 PM:name=Ace)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ace @ Jul 3 2009, 04:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=47888:date=Jul 3 2009, 05:45 PM:name=Baron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Baron @ Jul 3 2009, 05:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=47874:date=Jul 3 2009, 03:51 PM:name=BackyardLegend)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BackyardLegend @ Jul 3 2009, 03:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Today is exactly the reason why Piniella needs to be canned. Are you fucking kidding me? Leading Soriano off again?

I bet we don't see Fuld again for a week. Not that Sam is the savior, but fuck--he puts together four solid at bats last night during a Cubs win, and we bench him the next day in favor of the worst leadoff hitter of all time.

I was at the game last night, and was so excited to see a lineup that appeared to work. I didn't have to worry about that leadoff whiff. Today I am again sickened.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We won. And Sam Fuld is a AAAA player, not playing him is not grounds for firing.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I would have kept playing him until he stopped being awesome.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe in CF, but Soriano is not going to right himself on the bench.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

On a game to game basis, while Fuld is dominating (I'm saying, if it played out that way, and the moment Fuld stops, you stop starting him), who cares about Soriano. Right?

[rok]

In the postgame, Lou said there would be lineup changes tomorrow. That has to mean Soriano moving down in the order, and maybe Bradley getting a day off. I'd like to see Soriano/Fuld/Fuk in LF/CF/RF and batting 6th/1st/8th, or something like that.