HOF - Or Not?

[Coldneck]

I'd bet my left nut that Bagwell juiced as well.

[kbwsb]

<!--quoteo(post=49709:date=Jul 13 2009, 07:57 PM:name=Coldneck)-->QUOTE (Coldneck @ Jul 13 2009, 07:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I'd bet my left nut that Bagwell juiced as well.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Left and right.
And if he juiced (practically a certainty) who's to say that his best buddy and career-long teammate didn't also juice. (Craig Biggio)

[ruby23]

<!--quoteo(post=49698:date=Jul 13 2009, 07:46 PM:name=Coldneck)-->QUOTE (Coldneck @ Jul 13 2009, 07:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=49666:date=Jul 13 2009, 04:18 PM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Jul 13 2009, 04:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=49660:date=Jul 13 2009, 03:10 PM:name=Coldneck)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coldneck @ Jul 13 2009, 03:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=49655:date=Jul 13 2009, 04:07 PM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Jul 13 2009, 04:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=49646:date=Jul 13 2009, 02:42 PM:name=Coldneck)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coldneck @ Jul 13 2009, 02:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=49645:date=Jul 13 2009, 03:40 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Jul 13 2009, 03:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=49641:date=Jul 13 2009, 02:37 PM:name=KBwsb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KBwsb @ Jul 13 2009, 02:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Sosa's top 10 most similar players throughout history:

Ken Griffey (869)
Mike Schmidt (858) *
Reggie Jackson (841) *
Gary Sheffield (827)
Harmon Killebrew (822) *
Eddie Mathews (822) *
Mickey Mantle (821) *
Willie Stargell (820) *
Willie McCovey (807) *
Ernie Banks (806) *

*denotes Hall Of Famer

If Manny skates by despite the steroid issue, then Sammy goes in with flying colors.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed. Sosa's numbers were ridiculous. If Manny gets in so should Sosa.
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Both have Hall of Fame numbers aided by PEDs. But if you were to compare the 2 Manny has had a much better career.
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No he doesn't.
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Really? You honestly think Manny = Sammy? Their careers are not even close IMO.
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609 HR, 1667 RBI, 1475 Runs, 2408 Hits, .273/.344/.534
536 HR, 1754 RBI, 1474 Runs, 2435 Hits, .315/.412/.595

Sosa has more PAs, so it's not apples to apples, but those careers numbers don't show anything that indicates Ramirez <b>has had a much better career</b>.
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That OPS difference of .129 is huge. The counting stats will look worse in 3-4 years when Manny retires. The only thing Sammy has more of is HRs and Manny may catch him there before he retires. You pretty much just made my point for me. Thanks for that.
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I didn't make your anything for you. You said he had a much better career, that's just not the case. If you're argument that he had a much better career hinges on the OPS difference, then knock yourself out.

The fact of the matter is, their run producing numbers are damn near identical, but Manny gets on base more. Manny did it all while playing on much better teams, with infinitely more protection in the lineup, and never once carried a team like Sosa did. Thinking that Manny has had a <b>much better career</b> than Sosa just isn't reality.

[kbwsb]

Manny's slash numbers are indeed quite a bit better. They're historically huge; I think he's in the top ten all-time in OPS.
However, if the argument is "are they HOFers?" then the discussion has to be centered completely on your steroid opinion, because Sammy's stats are superior to about 80% of all current HOFers.

[Ronsantorocks]

I say no one gets in until they fucking vote in santo

[MrSheps]

<!--quoteo(post=49669:date=Jul 13 2009, 01:23 PM:name=ruby23)-->QUOTE (ruby23 @ Jul 13 2009, 01:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=49668:date=Jul 13 2009, 03:21 PM:name=rok)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rok @ Jul 13 2009, 03:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Well, the .315/.412/.595 vs .273/.344/.534 is a pretty big difference to me. Manny is more consistent than Sammy ever was too.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And if Manny plays 18 years like Sosa did, those numbers will go down too.
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Exactly. Wait until the guy is done and see how many years he played.

Take PEDs out of it and there is no way on earth Sosa isn't a HOFer. And the "he wasn't good until he used them" thing is idiotic. First, he was a 30/30 guy a couple times before he got big. Second, if he was one of the top 10 players in the game for all those years and everyone was using them, wouldn't that mean he was still one of the top 10 players? Or did they just work better for him than 95% of the rest of league? Or are people still stupid enough to believe it was just a handful of guys using them, because that whole theory is dead.

If someone wants to keep Sammy out of the HOF because of PED usage, awesome, more power to you. But letting Manny in? No way. Sammy's numbers put him in the top half of the HOF, maybe the top quarter. PEDs can keep him out, not his numbers.

[Destined]

<!--quoteo(post=49760:date=Jul 13 2009, 11:47 PM:name=MrSheps)-->QUOTE (MrSheps @ Jul 13 2009, 11:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=49669:date=Jul 13 2009, 01:23 PM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Jul 13 2009, 01:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=49668:date=Jul 13 2009, 03:21 PM:name=rok)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rok @ Jul 13 2009, 03:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Well, the .315/.412/.595 vs .273/.344/.534 is a pretty big difference to me. Manny is more consistent than Sammy ever was too.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And if Manny plays 18 years like Sosa did, those numbers will go down too.
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Exactly. Wait until the guy is done and see how many years he played.

Take PEDs out of it and there is no way on earth Sosa isn't a HOFer. And the "he wasn't good until he used them" thing is idiotic. First, he was a 30/30 guy a couple times before he got big. Second, if he was one of the top 10 players in the game for all those years and everyone was using them, wouldn't that mean he was still one of the top 10 players? Or did they just work better for him than 95% of the rest of league? Or are people still stupid enough to believe it was just a handful of guys using them, because that whole theory is dead.

If someone wants to keep Sammy out of the HOF because of PED usage, awesome, more power to you. But letting Manny in? No way. Sammy's numbers put him in the top half of the HOF, maybe the top quarter. PEDs can keep him out, not his numbers.
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Well put. While I think Manny is a better overall hitter, you're exactly right.

[Fella]

I don't know, I think I'll have to side with Manny having a much better career. Manny is one of the best hitters ever, whether or not part of that is because of PEDs is a different discussion but he has had an amazing career.

Sosa had 4 absolutely ridiculous seasons for sure and was good a lot of other years too but he was nowhere near the long term consistency of superstar that Manny is/was, at least in my book.

That said, if you throw PEDs out they would both easily cruise to the Hall of Fame. But with the way sportswriters are and the fact that they have both been tied to use, I wouldn't be surprised if neither got in. However if only one does, it will be Manny.

[Destined]

So I looked around at some stats just now, comparing guys. I tried to find a way to prove just how steroids effect a hitter, and their overall power numbers. Using the perceived logic that steroids = home runs, I decided to look at doubles to compare.

Take Mark McGwire for instance, the most probable steroid user, along with Bonds. According to Canseco, they both juiced before it was a trend, so you can eliminate the "pre-juice" talk with Big Mac, because his numbers are power-heavy from his rookie year in 1987. If you look at doubles, my theory is that that is a truer statement of how good of a pure hitter a power hitter is. McGwire's career high in doubles was 28. Yes 28. That's average. Ryan Theriot had more in 2007, and will likely eclipse that this year.

Career numbers for McGwire:
583 HRs (avg of 50/season)
252 Doubles (avg of just 22.season)

When he hit 70 in 1998, he had just 21 doubles. That's insane. If a steroids make you a better pure hitter, they would improve doubles too. But they don't, they just boost home run totals.

Looking at Sammy now:
609 HRs (45/season)
379 Doubles (26/season)

In 1998, while hitting 66 bombs, he doubled just 20 times. That's ridiculous. You can't just be seeing the ball better if only your home run numbers improve.


Now, let's change it up and look at Derrek Lee's 2005 season, which is assumed to be steroid-free and one of the best seasons that any of us have ever seen.
46 HRs
50 Doubles

Using the same logic, that would make Lee a better hitter wouldn't it? And would it not show that he did not use steroids OR at least they didn't only enhance his power, thus breaking a trend.

Now Albert Pujols...
351 HRs (43/season)
364 Doubles (44/season)

Now to put the hex in the system...Manny Ramirez
536 HRs (41/season)
518 Doubles (39/season)


Now I know I practically made up this whole theory(unless someone else beat me to it that I didn't have effort of finding on google), but I think it would show that in terms of being a better overall hitter, Manny Ramirez trumps Sammy Sosa. Yes, without PEDs, they both belong in the all, and like Sheps said, those are the only reasons to keep them out. I'm just saying that to me, doubles have more to say on a hitter's ability than steroids itself.

Thoughts?

[veryzer]

look, who gives a flying fuck if manny had a better career? what difference does that make? <b>if the steroids thing doesn't bother you, then they both deserve to be in. period.</b> point blank.

<b>if the steroids thing does bother you, then neither belong in.</b> period. point blank.

anyone who puts one in and not the other is a fucking retard.

[Coldneck]

<!--quoteo(post=49776:date=Jul 14 2009, 09:32 AM:name=veryzer)-->QUOTE (veryzer @ Jul 14 2009, 09:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->look, who gives a flying fuck if manny had a better career? what difference does that make? <b>if the steroids thing doesn't bother you, then they both deserve to be in. period.</b> point blank.

<b>if the steroids thing does bother you, then neither belong in.</b> period. point blank.

anyone who puts one in and not the other is a fucking retard.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Personally I'd put them both in, I was just responding to Rubes question to someone else on why Manny but not Sammy. Manny is/was a MUCH better and consistent hitter and has 2 World Championships is my answer.

[rok]

You guys realize that Manny has played only about 1.5 seasons less than Sammy has up to this point, right? I don't think he has or will drop off a cliff like Sammy did.

[ruby23]

<!--quoteo(post=49781:date=Jul 14 2009, 08:55 AM:name=Coldneck)-->QUOTE (Coldneck @ Jul 14 2009, 08:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=49776:date=Jul 14 2009, 09:32 AM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Jul 14 2009, 09:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->look, who gives a flying fuck if manny had a better career? what difference does that make? <b>if the steroids thing doesn't bother you, then they both deserve to be in. period.</b> point blank.

<b>if the steroids thing does bother you, then neither belong in.</b> period. point blank.

anyone who puts one in and not the other is a fucking retard.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Personally I'd put them both in, I was just responding to Rubes question to someone else on why Manny but not Sammy. Manny is/was a MUCH better and consistent hitter and has 2 World Championships is my answer.
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Your definition of <b>much</b> better is the problem. I'm not denying that Manny has better numbers, but <b>much</b> better? C'mon, that's not reality. Sammy has power numbers that rival the best that have ever played the game. There's basically no one that's ever played the game has <b>much</b> better numbers than Sammy, there's maybe a 1/2 percent of players in history that have better numbers than Sammy, few, if any are <b>much</b> better. Sammy did things that more than 99% of the players in history have done, so has Manny. If you want to jizz in your pants about OPS, a stat that is mathematically flawed, and claim that is your evidence that he has been <b>much</b> better, go ahead.

[vitaminB]

<!--quoteo(post=49776:date=Jul 14 2009, 09:32 AM:name=veryzer)-->QUOTE (veryzer @ Jul 14 2009, 09:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->look, who gives a flying fuck if manny had a better career? what difference does that make? <b>if the steroids thing doesn't bother you, then they both deserve to be in. period.</b> point blank.

<b>if the steroids thing does bother you, then neither belong in.</b> period. point blank.

anyone who puts one in and not the other is a fucking retard.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

The question is whether we think they WILL get in, not whether they should get in. I think Manny will get in because he has a couple more years to erase the 50 game suspension from people's minds. Sosa, on the other hand will not be able to shake the stigma.

But to argue that one's stats would get him in and one's wouldn't is indeed, retarded. Clearly in a vacuum both of their stats when attached to someone else would warrant HOF induction.

[PcB]

So Ramirez leads Sosa in everything but HR's and Sosa has more plate appearances, right? Did everyone forget that Ramirez is still playing and has a few more good or possibly great seasons in him? I think when Manny's career is done all of his numbers top Sosa.