HOF - Or Not?

[ruby23]

<!--quoteo(post=49809:date=Jul 14 2009, 12:26 PM:name=PcB)-->QUOTE (PcB @ Jul 14 2009, 12:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->So Ramirez leads Sosa in everything but HR's and Sosa has more plate appearances, right? Did everyone forget that Ramirez is still playing and has a few more good or possibly great seasons in him? I think when Manny's career is done all of his numbers top Sosa.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They will, except for maybe HRs. They still won't be "much better."

[Butcher]

Is the argument that Manny is so much better than Sosa that he'll be able to leapfrog the steroid taint and that Sammy won't?

I think if steroids are going to keep people out of the Hall (and it appears that it will -- look at McGwire), then it needs to keep everyone out. Including Manny. Manny is a first-ballot HOFer, numbers-wise. But so is Sosa. And...if steroids are keeping people out of the Hall, then nobody who played during that time should be Hall-eligible. Why? Because everyone was juicing. I'm not saying that makes it right, but nobody can tell me that there's a player on that list who didn't do at least one or two cycles of steroids. That includes Frank Thomas, Chipper Jones, Junior, and probably even the Crime Dog.

[PcB]

<!--quoteo(post=49810:date=Jul 14 2009, 12:31 PM:name=ruby23)-->QUOTE (ruby23 @ Jul 14 2009, 12:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=49809:date=Jul 14 2009, 12:26 PM:name=PcB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PcB @ Jul 14 2009, 12:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->So Ramirez leads Sosa in everything but HR's and Sosa has more plate appearances, right? Did everyone forget that Ramirez is still playing and has a few more good or possibly great seasons in him? I think when Manny's career is done all of his numbers top Sosa.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They will, except for maybe HRs. They still won't be "much better."
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They won't be "much better" but they'll be better. Where did this "much better" shit come in?

[PcB]

<!--quoteo(post=49811:date=Jul 14 2009, 12:32 PM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Jul 14 2009, 12:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Is the argument that Manny is so much better than Sosa that he'll be able to leapfrog the steroid taint and that Sammy won't?

I think if steroids are going to keep people out of the Hall (and it appears that it will -- look at McGwire), then it needs to keep everyone out. Including Manny. Manny is a first-ballot HOFer, numbers-wise. But so is Sosa. And...if steroids are keeping people out of the Hall, then nobody who played during that time should be Hall-eligible. Why? Because everyone was juicing. I'm not saying that makes it right, but nobody can tell me that there's a player on that list who didn't do at least one or two cycles of steroids. That includes Frank Thomas, Chipper Jones, Junior, and probably even the Crime Dog.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you're proposing that nobody from the steroid era gets in?

[Butcher]

<!--quoteo(post=49814:date=Jul 14 2009, 12:34 PM:name=PcB)-->QUOTE (PcB @ Jul 14 2009, 12:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=49810:date=Jul 14 2009, 12:31 PM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Jul 14 2009, 12:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=49809:date=Jul 14 2009, 12:26 PM:name=PcB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PcB @ Jul 14 2009, 12:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->So Ramirez leads Sosa in everything but HR's and Sosa has more plate appearances, right? Did everyone forget that Ramirez is still playing and has a few more good or possibly great seasons in him? I think when Manny's career is done all of his numbers top Sosa.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They will, except for maybe HRs. They still won't be "much better."
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They won't be "much better" but they'll be better. Where did this "much better" shit come in?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->Both have Hall of Fame numbers aided by PEDs. But if you were to compare the 2 Manny has had a much better career.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

[PcB]

<!--quoteo(post=49816:date=Jul 14 2009, 12:36 PM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Jul 14 2009, 12:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=49814:date=Jul 14 2009, 12:34 PM:name=PcB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PcB @ Jul 14 2009, 12:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=49810:date=Jul 14 2009, 12:31 PM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Jul 14 2009, 12:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=49809:date=Jul 14 2009, 12:26 PM:name=PcB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PcB @ Jul 14 2009, 12:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->So Ramirez leads Sosa in everything but HR's and Sosa has more plate appearances, right? Did everyone forget that Ramirez is still playing and has a few more good or possibly great seasons in him? I think when Manny's career is done all of his numbers top Sosa.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They will, except for maybe HRs. They still won't be "much better."
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They won't be "much better" but they'll be better. Where did this "much better" shit come in?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->Both have Hall of Fame numbers aided by PEDs. But if you were to compare the 2 Manny has had a much better career.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I haven't and don't care to read this whole thread. Who said that shit?

[Butcher]

<!--quoteo(post=49815:date=Jul 14 2009, 12:36 PM:name=PcB)-->QUOTE (PcB @ Jul 14 2009, 12:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=49811:date=Jul 14 2009, 12:32 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Jul 14 2009, 12:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Is the argument that Manny is so much better than Sosa that he'll be able to leapfrog the steroid taint and that Sammy won't?

I think if steroids are going to keep people out of the Hall (and it appears that it will -- look at McGwire), then it needs to keep everyone out. Including Manny. Manny is a first-ballot HOFer, numbers-wise. But so is Sosa. And...if steroids are keeping people out of the Hall, then nobody who played during that time should be Hall-eligible. Why? Because everyone was juicing. I'm not saying that makes it right, but nobody can tell me that there's a player on that list who didn't do at least one or two cycles of steroids. That includes Frank Thomas, Chipper Jones, Junior, and probably even the Crime Dog.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you're proposing that nobody from the steroid era gets in?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No.

I'm saying that it doesn't make sense to keep a select few players out (Raffy, McGwire, Clemens, Sosa, etc.) and put others in (whoever you think might not have juiced). Because everyone juiced.

Sosa should be in. First ballot. McGwire (as much as I dislike him) should be in already. Clemens should be in. First ballot.

You can't exclude certain guys because of PEDs unless you want to exclude everyone.

[Butcher]

<!--quoteo(post=49817:date=Jul 14 2009, 12:37 PM:name=PcB)-->QUOTE (PcB @ Jul 14 2009, 12:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=49816:date=Jul 14 2009, 12:36 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Jul 14 2009, 12:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=49814:date=Jul 14 2009, 12:34 PM:name=PcB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PcB @ Jul 14 2009, 12:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=49810:date=Jul 14 2009, 12:31 PM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Jul 14 2009, 12:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=49809:date=Jul 14 2009, 12:26 PM:name=PcB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PcB @ Jul 14 2009, 12:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->So Ramirez leads Sosa in everything but HR's and Sosa has more plate appearances, right? Did everyone forget that Ramirez is still playing and has a few more good or possibly great seasons in him? I think when Manny's career is done all of his numbers top Sosa.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They will, except for maybe HRs. They still won't be "much better."
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They won't be "much better" but they'll be better. Where did this "much better" shit come in?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->Both have Hall of Fame numbers aided by PEDs. But if you were to compare the 2 Manny has had a much better career.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I haven't and don't care to read this whole thread. Who said that shit?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know. Reading four pages of this conversation is a real drag. I'll just read and summarize it for you.

Coldneck said it.

[kbwsb]

I love Coldneck, but his wording is just plain wrong. You can say Manny has had a "much better" career than, say, Bernie Williams. But Manny and Sosa are actually quite close: both absolute superstars, both PED users.
A lot of guys rank players on how consistent they play. Manny was more consistent.
A lot of guys rank players on how good they were at their peak. Sammy had a better peak.

Sammy hit over 60 home runs <i>three times</i>. Manny's never come close to that; his career high is 45. He's hit 40 homers in a season just 4 times.
Sammy won an MVP, something Manny has never done (his highest finish was 3rd).
Manny won 2 rings because Theo is smarter than Hendry.

Sammy's 2001 season: 64 HR 160 RBI .328/.437/.737
146 runs scored, 425 total bases
Manny has never had a season remotely close to that, although he's had some great ones, including his 165 RBI year in Cleveland.

I'd say, if anything, they're remarkably similar.

[Coldneck]

IMO, 100 points in OPS is a major difference. He'll also probably have 400-500 more RBI and R when his career ends . That is where my MUCH better comment is coming from.

[bz]

<!--quoteo(post=49831:date=Jul 14 2009, 02:21 PM:name=Coldneck)-->QUOTE (Coldneck @ Jul 14 2009, 02:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->IMO, 100 points in OPS is a major difference. He'll also probably have 400-500 more RBI and R when his career ends . That is where my MUCH better comment is coming from.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

So one derivative and potentially two tactile stats make him MUCH better. Not buying it.

Sammy has about 250 more stolen bases than Manny. Does that one random stat tilt it back to equal?

Who had a much better career: Sandy Koufax, Pedro Martinez or Greg Maddux? Cause that's about the degree in difference between Sosa and Ramirez.

[kbwsb]

<!--quoteo(post=49832:date=Jul 14 2009, 02:35 PM:name=bz)-->QUOTE (bz @ Jul 14 2009, 02:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=49831:date=Jul 14 2009, 02:21 PM:name=Coldneck)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coldneck @ Jul 14 2009, 02:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->IMO, 100 points in OPS is a major difference. He'll also probably have 400-500 more RBI and R when his career ends . That is where my MUCH better comment is coming from.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

So one derivative and potentially two tactile stats make him MUCH better. Not buying it.

Sammy has about 250 more stolen bases than Manny. Does that one random stat tilt it back to equal?

Who had a much better career: Sandy Koufax, Pedro Martinez or Greg Maddux? Cause that's about the degree in difference between Sosa and Ramirez.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Maddux vs. Pedro thing isn't a bad analogy. Maddux was more consistent, and will have better career numbers. But at Pedro's 1997-2001 peak, he was probably the most dominant pitcher of all time. That's got to count for something, right?