HOF - Or Not?

[ruby23]

<!--quoteo(post=49646:date=Jul 13 2009, 02:42 PM:name=Coldneck)-->QUOTE (Coldneck @ Jul 13 2009, 02:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=49645:date=Jul 13 2009, 03:40 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Jul 13 2009, 03:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=49641:date=Jul 13 2009, 02:37 PM:name=KBwsb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KBwsb @ Jul 13 2009, 02:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Sosa's top 10 most similar players throughout history:

Ken Griffey (869)
Mike Schmidt (858) *
Reggie Jackson (841) *
Gary Sheffield (827)
Harmon Killebrew (822) *
Eddie Mathews (822) *
Mickey Mantle (821) *
Willie Stargell (820) *
Willie McCovey (807) *
Ernie Banks (806) *

*denotes Hall Of Famer

If Manny skates by despite the steroid issue, then Sammy goes in with flying colors.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed. Sosa's numbers were ridiculous. If Manny gets in so should Sosa.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Both have Hall of Fame numbers aided by PEDs. But if you were to compare the 2 Manny has had a much better career.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No he doesn't.

[ruby23]

This is for my personal HOF, not the actual HOF:

<!--quoteo(post=49619:date=Jul 13 2009, 02:13 PM:name=Andy)-->QUOTE (Andy @ Jul 13 2009, 02:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Jim Thome - No
Frank Thomas - No
Fred McGriff - No
Manny Ramirez - Yes
Jeff Bagwell - No
Sammy Sosa - Yes
Gary Sheffield - No
Rafael Palmeiro - No
Ken Griffey Jr. - Yes
Chipper Jones - Yes<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Ruby HOF doesn't have room for DHs.

[Coldneck]

<!--quoteo(post=49655:date=Jul 13 2009, 04:07 PM:name=ruby23)-->QUOTE (ruby23 @ Jul 13 2009, 04:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=49646:date=Jul 13 2009, 02:42 PM:name=Coldneck)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coldneck @ Jul 13 2009, 02:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=49645:date=Jul 13 2009, 03:40 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Jul 13 2009, 03:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=49641:date=Jul 13 2009, 02:37 PM:name=KBwsb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KBwsb @ Jul 13 2009, 02:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Sosa's top 10 most similar players throughout history:

Ken Griffey (869)
Mike Schmidt (858) *
Reggie Jackson (841) *
Gary Sheffield (827)
Harmon Killebrew (822) *
Eddie Mathews (822) *
Mickey Mantle (821) *
Willie Stargell (820) *
Willie McCovey (807) *
Ernie Banks (806) *

*denotes Hall Of Famer

If Manny skates by despite the steroid issue, then Sammy goes in with flying colors.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed. Sosa's numbers were ridiculous. If Manny gets in so should Sosa.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Both have Hall of Fame numbers aided by PEDs. But if you were to compare the 2 Manny has had a much better career.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No he doesn't.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Really? You honestly think Manny = Sammy? Their careers are not even close IMO.

[rok]

Sammy's career BA and OBP are pretty average compared to most HOFers. His SLG% is nice though, but we all know that can be spun.

[ruby23]

<!--quoteo(post=49660:date=Jul 13 2009, 03:10 PM:name=Coldneck)-->QUOTE (Coldneck @ Jul 13 2009, 03:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=49655:date=Jul 13 2009, 04:07 PM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Jul 13 2009, 04:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=49646:date=Jul 13 2009, 02:42 PM:name=Coldneck)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coldneck @ Jul 13 2009, 02:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=49645:date=Jul 13 2009, 03:40 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Jul 13 2009, 03:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=49641:date=Jul 13 2009, 02:37 PM:name=KBwsb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KBwsb @ Jul 13 2009, 02:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Sosa's top 10 most similar players throughout history:

Ken Griffey (869)
Mike Schmidt (858) *
Reggie Jackson (841) *
Gary Sheffield (827)
Harmon Killebrew (822) *
Eddie Mathews (822) *
Mickey Mantle (821) *
Willie Stargell (820) *
Willie McCovey (807) *
Ernie Banks (806) *

*denotes Hall Of Famer

If Manny skates by despite the steroid issue, then Sammy goes in with flying colors.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed. Sosa's numbers were ridiculous. If Manny gets in so should Sosa.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Both have Hall of Fame numbers aided by PEDs. But if you were to compare the 2 Manny has had a much better career.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No he doesn't.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Really? You honestly think Manny = Sammy? Their careers are not even close IMO.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
609 HR, 1667 RBI, 1475 Runs, 2408 Hits, .273/.344/.534
536 HR, 1754 RBI, 1474 Runs, 2435 Hits, .315/.412/.595

Sosa has more PAs, so it's not apples to apples, but those careers numbers don't show anything that indicates Ramirez <b>has had a much better career</b>.

[rok]

Well, the .315/.412/.595 vs .273/.344/.534 is a pretty big difference to me. Manny is more consistent than Sammy ever was too.

[ruby23]

<!--quoteo(post=49668:date=Jul 13 2009, 03:21 PM:name=rok)-->QUOTE (rok @ Jul 13 2009, 03:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Well, the .315/.412/.595 vs .273/.344/.534 is a pretty big difference to me. Manny is more consistent than Sammy ever was too.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And if Manny plays 18 years like Sosa did, those numbers will go down too.

[cherp]

<!--quoteo(post=49619:date=Jul 13 2009, 02:13 PM:name=Andy)-->QUOTE (Andy @ Jul 13 2009, 02:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Just a list of guys and whether or not <b>you believe they'll make the HOF</b>.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->



Jim Thome - Yes, he would benefit from 2 more seasons to get to 600 with his low avg.
Frank Thomas - Yes - first ballot
Fred McGriff - No
Manny Ramirez - No
Jeff Bagwell - No
Sammy Sosa - No
Gary Sheffield - No
Rafael Palmeiro - No
Ken Griffey Jr. - Yes - first ballot
Chipper Jones - Yes, assuming he plays enough to hit 500

[rok]

<!--quoteo(post=49669:date=Jul 13 2009, 03:23 PM:name=ruby23)-->QUOTE (ruby23 @ Jul 13 2009, 03:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=49668:date=Jul 13 2009, 03:21 PM:name=rok)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rok @ Jul 13 2009, 03:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Well, the .315/.412/.595 vs .273/.344/.534 is a pretty big difference to me. Manny is more consistent than Sammy ever was too.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And if Manny plays 18 years like Sosa did, those numbers will go down too.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Most likely, but that would be quite a drop. Who knows how much longer Manny will be around for.

Sammy definitely did himself a disservice by sticking around those 2 extra seasons.

[rok]

Then again, 9160 PA for Manny (17 seasons) vs 9896 PA for Sammy (18 seasons), so we're talking about roughly 1 1/2 more seasons for Sammy thus far. It will be interesting to see how Manny holds up after another season. I'm guessing we won't see a huge dropoff.

[ColoradoCub]

<!--quoteo(post=49619:date=Jul 13 2009, 01:13 PM:name=Andy)-->QUOTE (Andy @ Jul 13 2009, 01:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Just a list of guys and whether or not you believe they'll make the HOF.

Jim Thome
Frank Thomas
Fred McGriff
Manny Ramirez
Jeff Bagwell
Sammy Sosa
Gary Sheffield
Rafael Palmeiro
Ken Griffey Jr.
Chipper Jones<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

That's pretty much how I see it.

[PcB]

<!--quoteo(post=49619:date=Jul 13 2009, 02:13 PM:name=Andy)-->QUOTE (Andy @ Jul 13 2009, 02:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Just a list of guys and whether or not you believe they'll make the HOF.

Jim Thome - Yes
Frank Thomas - Yes
Fred McGriff - No
Manny Ramirez - Yes
Jeff Bagwell - No
Sammy Sosa - No
Gary Sheffield - No
Rafael Palmeiro - No
Ken Griffey Jr. - Yes
Chipper Jones - Yes<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

[Coldneck]

<!--quoteo(post=49666:date=Jul 13 2009, 04:18 PM:name=ruby23)-->QUOTE (ruby23 @ Jul 13 2009, 04:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=49660:date=Jul 13 2009, 03:10 PM:name=Coldneck)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coldneck @ Jul 13 2009, 03:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=49655:date=Jul 13 2009, 04:07 PM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Jul 13 2009, 04:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=49646:date=Jul 13 2009, 02:42 PM:name=Coldneck)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coldneck @ Jul 13 2009, 02:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=49645:date=Jul 13 2009, 03:40 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Jul 13 2009, 03:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=49641:date=Jul 13 2009, 02:37 PM:name=KBwsb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KBwsb @ Jul 13 2009, 02:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Sosa's top 10 most similar players throughout history:

Ken Griffey (869)
Mike Schmidt (858) *
Reggie Jackson (841) *
Gary Sheffield (827)
Harmon Killebrew (822) *
Eddie Mathews (822) *
Mickey Mantle (821) *
Willie Stargell (820) *
Willie McCovey (807) *
Ernie Banks (806) *

*denotes Hall Of Famer

If Manny skates by despite the steroid issue, then Sammy goes in with flying colors.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed. Sosa's numbers were ridiculous. If Manny gets in so should Sosa.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Both have Hall of Fame numbers aided by PEDs. But if you were to compare the 2 Manny has had a much better career.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No he doesn't.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Really? You honestly think Manny = Sammy? Their careers are not even close IMO.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
609 HR, 1667 RBI, 1475 Runs, 2408 Hits, .273/.344/.534
536 HR, 1754 RBI, 1474 Runs, 2435 Hits, .315/.412/.595

Sosa has more PAs, so it's not apples to apples, but those careers numbers don't show anything that indicates Ramirez <b>has had a much better career</b>.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

That OPS difference of .129 is huge. The counting stats will look worse in 3-4 years when Manny retires. The only thing Sammy has more of is HRs and Manny may catch him there before he retires. You pretty much just made my point for me. Thanks for that.

[HemisFear]

<!--quoteo(post=49619:date=Jul 13 2009, 02:13 PM:name=Andy)-->QUOTE (Andy @ Jul 13 2009, 02:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Just a list of guys and whether or not you believe they'll make the HOF.

Jim Thome
Frank Thomas
Fred McGriff
Manny Ramirez
Jeff Bagwell
Sammy Sosa
Gary Sheffield
Rafael Palmeiro
Ken Griffey Jr.
Chipper Jones<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Jim Thome - Hmmmm......maybe
Frank Thomas - Yes
Fred McGriff - No
Manny Ramirez - Dope = Nope
Jeff Bagwell - Yes
Sammy Sosa - Dope = Nope
Gary Sheffield - Dope = Nope
Rafael Palmeiro - Dope = Nope
Ken Griffey Jr. - Yes (1st Ballot)
Chipper Jones - Yes

[kbwsb]

Manny has been more consistent than Sosa, true. However, to me, that's like saying that
Don Sutton was more consistent than Sandy Koufax.
He was.
But when Koufax/Sosa peaked, they had the best peaks of almost anyone in the history of the sport.