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Kid · 09-01-2009, 03:15 PM

QUOTE (Coldneck @ Sep 1 2009, 03:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kid @ Sep 1 2009, 03:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Giff @ Sep 1 2009, 01:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coldneck @ Sep 1 2009, 11:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Sep 1 2009, 10:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>There's no doubt in my mind that Zambrano would get claimed if put on waivers.
Why? Really, there is no doubt at all? Do you think his value is $18M per year for 4 years? Can you explain this a little further. I realize it would only take one GM, but it would be a move very similar to the Alex Rios move by Ken Williams. Z is a good pitcher, there's no denying that. The question is whether or not another GM is willing to pay him Cy Young money for the next 4 years. Please make your case because I just don't think there are any.
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QUOTE I realize it would only take one GM, but it would be a move very similar to the Alex Rios move by Ken Williams.
How does comparing Zambrano's case to Rios' help your point? Rios is a much less productive player, and he's probably overpaid worse than Zambrano. Yet he was still claimed. If anything, the point you brought up proves that you're original statement that you would "bet your left nut Zambrano wouldn't get claimed" is incredibly dumb.
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Not to mention that the White Sox were within the first 6 or so teams out of 29 to get a crack at claiming Rios. Priority of waiver claims first go to teams in the same league in order from worst to best record. So the White Sox claimed him before the Red Sox, Yankees, Rays, Tigers, Twins, Angels, Rangers, or any NL team got a shot at him. Only Baltimore, Cleveland, Kansas City, Seattle, and Oakland (virtually all small market teams) had passed on him.
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So you think that another team would have rescued Ricciardi from Rios' contract? Is that what you are saying? There is obviously no way to know the answer, but I again would have a differing opinion.
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I think it's entirely possible that out of the 22 remaining teams, including 2 New York teams, 2 LA teams, Boston, the Cubs, etc., at least 1 would have put a claim in.

Coldneck · 09-01-2009, 03:24 PM

QUOTE (Kid @ Sep 1 2009, 03:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coldneck @ Sep 1 2009, 03:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Can someone please answer this question. If Zambrano were a free agent, and could sign with any team today, would his contract equal 4 yr / $72M? Because that is basically the argument we are having. I think that answer is no.
That's a false analogy. If he signed a new contract this offseason, he might not get 4/72, but I think he very well might. That doesn't mean that a team, or numerous teams, wouldn't take on his contract with that left on it.
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There has to be a GM that thinks Z is worth 4 yr/ 72M for him to be claimed. I don't think there is one out there. Evidently you think there are lots og GMs that feel that way. That is the only point I am trying to make with my analogy.

Coldneck · 09-01-2009, 03:25 PM

QUOTE (Kid @ Sep 1 2009, 03:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coldneck @ Sep 1 2009, 03:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kid @ Sep 1 2009, 03:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Giff @ Sep 1 2009, 01:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coldneck @ Sep 1 2009, 11:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Sep 1 2009, 10:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>There's no doubt in my mind that Zambrano would get claimed if put on waivers.
Why? Really, there is no doubt at all? Do you think his value is $18M per year for 4 years? Can you explain this a little further. I realize it would only take one GM, but it would be a move very similar to the Alex Rios move by Ken Williams. Z is a good pitcher, there's no denying that. The question is whether or not another GM is willing to pay him Cy Young money for the next 4 years. Please make your case because I just don't think there are any.
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QUOTE I realize it would only take one GM, but it would be a move very similar to the Alex Rios move by Ken Williams.
How does comparing Zambrano's case to Rios' help your point? Rios is a much less productive player, and he's probably overpaid worse than Zambrano. Yet he was still claimed. If anything, the point you brought up proves that you're original statement that you would "bet your left nut Zambrano wouldn't get claimed" is incredibly dumb.
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Not to mention that the White Sox were within the first 6 or so teams out of 29 to get a crack at claiming Rios. Priority of waiver claims first go to teams in the same league in order from worst to best record. So the White Sox claimed him before the Red Sox, Yankees, Rays, Tigers, Twins, Angels, Rangers, or any NL team got a shot at him. Only Baltimore, Cleveland, Kansas City, Seattle, and Oakland (virtually all small market teams) had passed on him.
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So you think that another team would have rescued Ricciardi from Rios' contract? Is that what you are saying? There is obviously no way to know the answer, but I again would have a differing opinion.
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I think it's entirely possible that out of the 22 remaining teams, including 2 New York teams, 2 LA teams, Boston, the Cubs, etc., at least 1 would have put a claim in.
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Possible? Yes. Likely? Absolutely not.

Giff · 09-01-2009, 03:29 PM

QUOTE (Coldneck @ Sep 1 2009, 02:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kid @ Sep 1 2009, 03:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coldneck @ Sep 1 2009, 03:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Can someone please answer this question. If Zambrano were a free agent, and could sign with any team today, would his contract equal 4 yr / $72M? Because that is basically the argument we are having. I think that answer is no.
That's a false analogy. If he signed a new contract this offseason, he might not get 4/72, but I think he very well might. That doesn't mean that a team, or numerous teams, wouldn't take on his contract with that left on it.
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There has to be a GM that thinks Z is worth 4 yr/ 72M for him to be claimed. I don't think there is one out there. Evidently you think there are lots og GMs that feel that way. That is the only point I am trying to make with my analogy.
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No there doesn't, not at all. If there's a team that wants to solidify their rotation with a really good #2, and money isn't a problem, then that team can afford to over pay.

***Butcher*** · 09-01-2009, 03:29 PM

QUOTE (Coldneck @ Sep 1 2009, 02:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kid @ Sep 1 2009, 03:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coldneck @ Sep 1 2009, 03:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Can someone please answer this question. If Zambrano were a free agent, and could sign with any team today, would his contract equal 4 yr / $72M? Because that is basically the argument we are having. I think that answer is no.
That's a false analogy. If he signed a new contract this offseason, he might not get 4/72, but I think he very well might. That doesn't mean that a team, or numerous teams, wouldn't take on his contract with that left on it.
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There has to be a GM that thinks Z is worth 4 yr/ 72M for him to be claimed. I don't think there is one out there. Evidently you think there are lots og GMs that feel that way. That is the only point I am trying to make with my analogy.
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But it simply isn't the same as free agency. A pitcher Z's age, with his experience and resumé just doesn't hit free agency all that often. Part of the reason you'd find several GMs willing to take on that salary for Z is because it isn't likely they'd be able to pick up a pitcher like Z on the free agent market.

Coldneck · 09-01-2009, 03:34 PM

QUOTE (Giff @ Sep 1 2009, 03:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coldneck @ Sep 1 2009, 02:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kid @ Sep 1 2009, 03:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coldneck @ Sep 1 2009, 03:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Can someone please answer this question. If Zambrano were a free agent, and could sign with any team today, would his contract equal 4 yr / $72M? Because that is basically the argument we are having. I think that answer is no.
That's a false analogy. If he signed a new contract this offseason, he might not get 4/72, but I think he very well might. That doesn't mean that a team, or numerous teams, wouldn't take on his contract with that left on it.
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There has to be a GM that thinks Z is worth 4 yr/ 72M for him to be claimed. I don't think there is one out there. Evidently you think there are lots og GMs that feel that way. That is the only point I am trying to make with my analogy.
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No there doesn't, not at all. If there's a team that wants to solidify their rotation with a really good #2, and money isn't a problem, then that team can afford to over pay.
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Than that GM believes Z is worth 4/72 to this team, because that is exactly what they are giving him. If they didn't think he was worth it than that wouldn't have claimed him.

ruby23 · 09-01-2009, 03:35 PM

QUOTE (Coldneck @ Sep 1 2009, 02:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kid @ Sep 1 2009, 03:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coldneck @ Sep 1 2009, 03:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Can someone please answer this question. If Zambrano were a free agent, and could sign with any team today, would his contract equal 4 yr / $72M? Because that is basically the argument we are having. I think that answer is no.
That's a false analogy. If he signed a new contract this offseason, he might not get 4/72, but I think he very well might. That doesn't mean that a team, or numerous teams, wouldn't take on his contract with that left on it.
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There has to be a GM that thinks Z is worth 4 yr/ 72M for him to be claimed. I don't think there is one out there. Evidently you think there are lots og GMs that feel that way. That is the only point I am trying to make with my analogy.
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For free, without trading anything to get him, to have Zambrano under control for 4 years, there would literally be 2 dozen teams putting a claim in for him at that price. To think otherwise is foolish and completely uninformed.

Kid · 09-01-2009, 03:37 PM

QUOTE (Coldneck @ Sep 1 2009, 03:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kid @ Sep 1 2009, 03:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coldneck @ Sep 1 2009, 03:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Can someone please answer this question. If Zambrano were a free agent, and could sign with any team today, would his contract equal 4 yr / $72M? Because that is basically the argument we are having. I think that answer is no.
That's a false analogy. If he signed a new contract this offseason, he might not get 4/72, but I think he very well might. That doesn't mean that a team, or numerous teams, wouldn't take on his contract with that left on it.
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There has to be a GM that thinks Z is worth 4 yr/ 72M for him to be claimed. I don't think there is one out there. Evidently you think there are lots og GMs that feel that way. That is the only point I am trying to make with my analogy.
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There's a difference between whether the market for him would reach X amount in free agency (and again, I tend to think it would), vs. whether a team would make a waiver claim. Let's say that there's a single GM who could claim him that thinks he's worth it. That GM wouldn't need to bid so high in free agency if he's the only one who puts that value on Z. He could get him for less. Free agency bids are designed to bid high enough to get a player, not necessarily to match his value. That same GM who wouldn't need to bid as high in free agency would presumably be willing to put a waiver claim if he thinks he's worth it.

Coldneck · 09-01-2009, 03:39 PM

QUOTE (ruby23 @ Sep 1 2009, 03:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coldneck @ Sep 1 2009, 02:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kid @ Sep 1 2009, 03:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coldneck @ Sep 1 2009, 03:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Can someone please answer this question. If Zambrano were a free agent, and could sign with any team today, would his contract equal 4 yr / $72M? Because that is basically the argument we are having. I think that answer is no.
That's a false analogy. If he signed a new contract this offseason, he might not get 4/72, but I think he very well might. That doesn't mean that a team, or numerous teams, wouldn't take on his contract with that left on it.
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There has to be a GM that thinks Z is worth 4 yr/ 72M for him to be claimed. I don't think there is one out there. Evidently you think there are lots og GMs that feel that way. That is the only point I am trying to make with my analogy.
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For free, without trading anything to get him, to have Zambrano under control for 4 years, there would literally be 2 dozen teams putting a claim in for him at that price. To think otherwise is foolish and completely uninformed.
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You are out of your mind if you think 2 dozen teams would pay that for Z with no strings attached. I will name a dozen right now that positively would not.

Pirates
Nats
Marlins
Rays
Toronto
Diamondbacks
A's
Twins
Reds
Brewers
Indians
Royals

Coldneck · 09-01-2009, 03:42 PM

QUOTE (Kid @ Sep 1 2009, 03:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coldneck @ Sep 1 2009, 03:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kid @ Sep 1 2009, 03:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coldneck @ Sep 1 2009, 03:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Can someone please answer this question. If Zambrano were a free agent, and could sign with any team today, would his contract equal 4 yr / $72M? Because that is basically the argument we are having. I think that answer is no.
That's a false analogy. If he signed a new contract this offseason, he might not get 4/72, but I think he very well might. That doesn't mean that a team, or numerous teams, wouldn't take on his contract with that left on it.
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There has to be a GM that thinks Z is worth 4 yr/ 72M for him to be claimed. I don't think there is one out there. Evidently you think there are lots og GMs that feel that way. That is the only point I am trying to make with my analogy.
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There's a difference between whether the market for him would reach X amount in free agency (and again, I tend to think it would), vs. whether a team would make a waiver claim. Let's say that there's a single GM who could claim him that thinks he's worth it. That GM wouldn't need to bid so high in free agency if he's the only one who puts that value on Z. He could get him for less. Free agency bids are designed to bid high enough to get a player, not necessarily to match his value. <b>That same GM who wouldn't need to bid as high in free agency would presumably be willing to put a waiver claim if he thinks he's worth it.</b>
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I agree with this and your assertion of my false analogy. But your bolded sentence is exactly what I am arguing. I don't think there is a GM out there that believes Z is worth 4/72 and would make a claim.

ruby23 · 09-01-2009, 03:45 PM

QUOTE (Coldneck @ Sep 1 2009, 02:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Sep 1 2009, 03:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coldneck @ Sep 1 2009, 02:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kid @ Sep 1 2009, 03:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coldneck @ Sep 1 2009, 03:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Can someone please answer this question. If Zambrano were a free agent, and could sign with any team today, would his contract equal 4 yr / $72M? Because that is basically the argument we are having. I think that answer is no.
That's a false analogy. If he signed a new contract this offseason, he might not get 4/72, but I think he very well might. That doesn't mean that a team, or numerous teams, wouldn't take on his contract with that left on it.
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There has to be a GM that thinks Z is worth 4 yr/ 72M for him to be claimed. I don't think there is one out there. Evidently you think there are lots og GMs that feel that way. That is the only point I am trying to make with my analogy.
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For free, without trading anything to get him, to have Zambrano under control for 4 years, there would literally be 2 dozen teams putting a claim in for him at that price. To think otherwise is foolish and completely uninformed.
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You are out of your mind if you think 2 dozen teams would pay that for Z with no strings attached. I will name a dozen right now that positively would not.

Pirates
Nats
Marlins
Rays
Toronto
Diamondbacks
A's
Twins
Reds
Brewers
Indians
Royals
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You are so wrong.

ruby23 · 09-01-2009, 03:46 PM

QUOTE (Coldneck @ Sep 1 2009, 02:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kid @ Sep 1 2009, 03:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coldneck @ Sep 1 2009, 03:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kid @ Sep 1 2009, 03:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coldneck @ Sep 1 2009, 03:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Can someone please answer this question. If Zambrano were a free agent, and could sign with any team today, would his contract equal 4 yr / $72M? Because that is basically the argument we are having. I think that answer is no.
That's a false analogy. If he signed a new contract this offseason, he might not get 4/72, but I think he very well might. That doesn't mean that a team, or numerous teams, wouldn't take on his contract with that left on it.
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There has to be a GM that thinks Z is worth 4 yr/ 72M for him to be claimed. I don't think there is one out there. Evidently you think there are lots og GMs that feel that way. That is the only point I am trying to make with my analogy.
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There's a difference between whether the market for him would reach X amount in free agency (and again, I tend to think it would), vs. whether a team would make a waiver claim. Let's say that there's a single GM who could claim him that thinks he's worth it. That GM wouldn't need to bid so high in free agency if he's the only one who puts that value on Z. He could get him for less. Free agency bids are designed to bid high enough to get a player, not necessarily to match his value. <b>That same GM who wouldn't need to bid as high in free agency would presumably be willing to put a waiver claim if he thinks he's worth it.</b>
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I agree with this and your assertion of my false analogy. But your bolded sentence is exactly what I am arguing. I don't think there is a GM out there that believes Z is worth 4/72 and would make a claim.
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You're right, there's not 1 GM out there that would, there's about 2 dozen.

Coldneck · 09-01-2009, 03:47 PM

I would love to settle this once and for all. Is there a place that 1)We can find out if Z was placed on waivers and 2) We can determine if he was claimed by a team?

I tend to think that if he was claimed his name would have hit the newspapers similar to Harden and Heilman. I also tend to believe that he was placed on waivers because nearly all players typically are. I'd love to be able to confirm this one way or the other.

Coldneck · 09-01-2009, 03:49 PM

QUOTE (ruby23 @ Sep 1 2009, 03:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coldneck @ Sep 1 2009, 02:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Sep 1 2009, 03:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coldneck @ Sep 1 2009, 02:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kid @ Sep 1 2009, 03:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coldneck @ Sep 1 2009, 03:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Can someone please answer this question. If Zambrano were a free agent, and could sign with any team today, would his contract equal 4 yr / $72M? Because that is basically the argument we are having. I think that answer is no.
That's a false analogy. If he signed a new contract this offseason, he might not get 4/72, but I think he very well might. That doesn't mean that a team, or numerous teams, wouldn't take on his contract with that left on it.
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There has to be a GM that thinks Z is worth 4 yr/ 72M for him to be claimed. I don't think there is one out there. Evidently you think there are lots og GMs that feel that way. That is the only point I am trying to make with my analogy.
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For free, without trading anything to get him, to have Zambrano under control for 4 years, there would literally be 2 dozen teams putting a claim in for him at that price. To think otherwise is foolish and completely uninformed.
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You are out of your mind if you think 2 dozen teams would pay that for Z with no strings attached. I will name a dozen right now that positively would not.

Pirates
Nats
Marlins
Rays
Toronto
Diamondbacks
A's
Twins
Reds
Brewers
Indians
Royals
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You are so wrong.
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If you think one of those teams would put in a waiver claim on Z, much less half of them, you are the one that is [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/ruby.gif[/img] .

Big time.

Giff · 09-01-2009, 03:49 PM

Again Coldneck, you used a perfect example of why there's little doubt at least one team would put a claim on him. Alex fucking Rios, he of the .264/.317/.427 slash numbers at the time of his claim and the 6 years, $60+mil left on his contract, got claimed without even making it through a third of the league.

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