Harden and Heilman Claimed on Waivers

[Giff]

<!--quoteo(post=60974:date=Sep 1 2009, 03:01 PM:name=Coldneck)-->QUOTE (Coldneck @ Sep 1 2009, 03:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=60972:date=Sep 1 2009, 03:59 PM:name=Giff)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Giff @ Sep 1 2009, 03:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=60967:date=Sep 1 2009, 02:55 PM:name=Coldneck)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coldneck @ Sep 1 2009, 02:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=60965:date=Sep 1 2009, 03:52 PM:name=Giff)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Giff @ Sep 1 2009, 03:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=60961:date=Sep 1 2009, 02:50 PM:name=Coldneck)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coldneck @ Sep 1 2009, 02:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=60960:date=Sep 1 2009, 03:49 PM:name=Giff)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Giff @ Sep 1 2009, 03:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Again Coldneck, you used a perfect example of why there's little doubt at least one team would put a claim on him. Alex fucking Rios, he of the .264/.317/.427 slash numbers at the time of his claim and the 6 years, $60+mil left on his contract, got claimed without even making it through a third of the league.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

One is not related to the other. Just b/c Ken Williams is a fucking moron doesn't mean the rest of the GMs are.
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You said yourself they're similar. Now they aren't related at all?
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Point to where I said they are similar. You'll be looking a long time because you won't find it.


I said that the White Sox wouldn't make a claim on Z b/c of the commitments they made to Rios and Peavy.
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http://www.thecubsbrickyard.com/sonsofivy/...ost&p=60922
<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->I realize it would only take one GM, but it would be a move very similar to the Alex Rios move by Ken Williams.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
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I stand by that. I think KW was the only one dumb enough to pick up Rios. I don't think another GM would pick up Zambrano.
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So does that mean you think KW is the dumbest GM in the game? Because I hate him and all, and I don't think he's that great a GM, but there are a bunch of teams that would take KW over their GMs any day.

[Coldneck]

<!--quoteo(post=60976:date=Sep 1 2009, 04:03 PM:name=Giff)-->QUOTE (Giff @ Sep 1 2009, 04:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=60974:date=Sep 1 2009, 03:01 PM:name=Coldneck)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coldneck @ Sep 1 2009, 03:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=60972:date=Sep 1 2009, 03:59 PM:name=Giff)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Giff @ Sep 1 2009, 03:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=60967:date=Sep 1 2009, 02:55 PM:name=Coldneck)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coldneck @ Sep 1 2009, 02:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=60965:date=Sep 1 2009, 03:52 PM:name=Giff)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Giff @ Sep 1 2009, 03:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=60961:date=Sep 1 2009, 02:50 PM:name=Coldneck)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coldneck @ Sep 1 2009, 02:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=60960:date=Sep 1 2009, 03:49 PM:name=Giff)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Giff @ Sep 1 2009, 03:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Again Coldneck, you used a perfect example of why there's little doubt at least one team would put a claim on him. Alex fucking Rios, he of the .264/.317/.427 slash numbers at the time of his claim and the 6 years, $60+mil left on his contract, got claimed without even making it through a third of the league.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

One is not related to the other. Just b/c Ken Williams is a fucking moron doesn't mean the rest of the GMs are.
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You said yourself they're similar. Now they aren't related at all?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Point to where I said they are similar. You'll be looking a long time because you won't find it.


I said that the White Sox wouldn't make a claim on Z b/c of the commitments they made to Rios and Peavy.
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http://www.thecubsbrickyard.com/sonsofivy/...ost&p=60922
<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->I realize it would only take one GM, but it would be a move very similar to the Alex Rios move by Ken Williams.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
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I stand by that. I think KW was the only one dumb enough to pick up Rios. I don't think another GM would pick up Zambrano.
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So does that mean you think KW is the dumbest GM in the game? Because I hate him and all, and I don't think he's that great a GM, but there are a bunch of teams that would take KW over their GMs any day.
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not necessarily. But he did make an incredibly poor decision.

[Kid]

<!--quoteo(post=60975:date=Sep 1 2009, 04:03 PM:name=Coldneck)-->QUOTE (Coldneck @ Sep 1 2009, 04:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=60973:date=Sep 1 2009, 04:00 PM:name=Kid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kid @ Sep 1 2009, 04:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=60970:date=Sep 1 2009, 03:57 PM:name=Coldneck)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coldneck @ Sep 1 2009, 03:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=60966:date=Sep 1 2009, 03:54 PM:name=Kid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kid @ Sep 1 2009, 03:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=60961:date=Sep 1 2009, 03:50 PM:name=Coldneck)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coldneck @ Sep 1 2009, 03:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=60960:date=Sep 1 2009, 03:49 PM:name=Giff)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Giff @ Sep 1 2009, 03:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Again Coldneck, you used a perfect example of why there's little doubt at least one team would put a claim on him. Alex fucking Rios, he of the .264/.317/.427 slash numbers at the time of his claim and the 6 years, $60+mil left on his contract, got claimed without even making it through a third of the league.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

One is not related to the other. Just b/c Ken Williams is a fucking moron doesn't mean the rest of the GMs are.
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Well then you've got a perfect little scenario. A directly analogous situation that disproves your theory: "Well that doesn't count because it's Kenny Williams."
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I've said before that all it takes is one idiot GM. Could it happen... absolutely. Would it happen... I seriously doubt it. I think Ken Williams was the only GM that would possible make such an idiotic move. The BJs lucked out and the Methheads will be paying for it the next 6 years.
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Here's the problem with your argument. Your position is based only on faith. I can't unequivocally say that you're wrong, but I can point to the fact that it only took 20% of the teams to have the right to claim Rios before he was claimed. Your position is "I don't believe it would happen" which is based on nothing more than your belief. Could you be right? Yes. But when you take a position that can't be disproven because it's nothing more than blind belief, there's not really much of a point to continuing this discussion.
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The opposite opinon is based on that exact same faith. There is no way for one to prove or disprove the other unless something is published saying Z was released and was or wasn't claimed.
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Except the analogous situation with Alex Rios where it only took 20% of the teams to claim him, and Hendry's statement that a dozen players (i.e. half the team) were claimed. That's not blind belief. Your attempt to distinguish Rios by saying "only Kenny Williams would do it" when 80% of the teams hadn't had a chance yet is blind faith.

[Brock]

All I know is that I can't think of a dozen players on this team that I would want to pull back off waivers if they were claimed.

[Coldneck]

<!--quoteo(post=60979:date=Sep 1 2009, 04:14 PM:name=Brock)-->QUOTE (Brock @ Sep 1 2009, 04:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->All I know is that I can't think of a dozen players on this team that I would want to pull back off waivers if they were claimed.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would pull all of these players off waivers if I received nothing in return.
Soto
Hill
Theriot
Fox
Wells
Lee
Aramis
Lilly
Harden
Marmol
Guzman
Fontenot
Fuld
Baker

[Coldneck]

I would give these players their walking papers:

Soriano
Bradley
Zambrano
possibly Fuk - not sure

[Butcher]

<!--quoteo(post=60981:date=Sep 1 2009, 03:20 PM:name=Coldneck)-->QUOTE (Coldneck @ Sep 1 2009, 03:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I would give these players there walking papers:

Soriano
Bradley
Zambrano<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree on Soriano.

Nyet on Bradley and Zambrano.

[dk123]

<!--quoteo(post=60981:date=Sep 1 2009, 03:20 PM:name=Coldneck)-->QUOTE (Coldneck @ Sep 1 2009, 03:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I would give these players their walking papers:

Soriano
Bradley
Zambrano
possibly Fuk - not sure<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you insane? In a clinical sense?

[PcB]

<!--quoteo(post=60981:date=Sep 1 2009, 03:20 PM:name=Coldneck)-->QUOTE (Coldneck @ Sep 1 2009, 03:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I would give these players their walking papers:

Soriano
Bradley
Zambrano
possibly Fuk - not sure<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've read this whole thread and I really don't understand your brain.

[rok]

<!--quoteo(post=60982:date=Sep 1 2009, 03:22 PM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Sep 1 2009, 03:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=60981:date=Sep 1 2009, 03:20 PM:name=Coldneck)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coldneck @ Sep 1 2009, 03:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I would give these players there walking papers:

Soriano
Bradley
Zambrano<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree on Soriano.

Nyet on Bradley and Zambrano.
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Same here. Who would we replace Milton and Z with? Unless you have better options both internally or on the FA or trade markets, it makes little sense unless you plan on blowing up the team. There aren't a lot of great options out there.

[Butcher]

<!--quoteo(post=60985:date=Sep 1 2009, 03:25 PM:name=rok)-->QUOTE (rok @ Sep 1 2009, 03:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=60982:date=Sep 1 2009, 03:22 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Sep 1 2009, 03:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=60981:date=Sep 1 2009, 03:20 PM:name=Coldneck)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coldneck @ Sep 1 2009, 03:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I would give these players there walking papers:

Soriano
Bradley
Zambrano<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree on Soriano.

Nyet on Bradley and Zambrano.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Same here. Who would we replace Milton and Z with? Unless you have better options both internally or on the FA or trade markets, it makes little sense unless you plan on blowing up the team. There aren't a lot of great options out there.
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Exactly.

Now...if you want to blow up the team, I can probably get on board with that. But if that's the case, I want every piece gone from Ramirez to Z to Lee to Lilly to Soto -- all the way down the line. I want a pure youth movement. But if we're just getting rid of Zambrano, Soriano, and Milton with the expectation that we're still going to compete? Well...we aren't.

[ruby23]

There's two sides to this argument, the correct side and Coldneck's side.

[Coldneck]

<!--quoteo(post=60986:date=Sep 1 2009, 04:29 PM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Sep 1 2009, 04:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=60985:date=Sep 1 2009, 03:25 PM:name=rok)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rok @ Sep 1 2009, 03:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=60982:date=Sep 1 2009, 03:22 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Sep 1 2009, 03:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=60981:date=Sep 1 2009, 03:20 PM:name=Coldneck)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coldneck @ Sep 1 2009, 03:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I would give these players there walking papers:

Soriano
Bradley
Zambrano<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree on Soriano.

Nyet on Bradley and Zambrano.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Same here. Who would we replace Milton and Z with? Unless you have better options both internally or on the FA or trade markets, it makes little sense unless you plan on blowing up the team. There aren't a lot of great options out there.
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Exactly.

Now...if you want to blow up the team, I can probably get on board with that. But if that's the case, I want every piece gone from Ramirez to Z to Lee to Lilly to Soto -- all the way down the line. I want a pure youth movement. But if we're just getting rid of Zambrano, Soriano, and Milton with the expectation that we're still going to compete? Well...we aren't.
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I agree Butch. IMO, we're not competing with those guys either. My vote would be for a full blow up of this team. I think you have stated yours is similar. However, I don't think a Cubs team will ever do such a thing based on our market size. So the next best thing would be a partial blow up and replace the overpaid players (Z, Soriano, Milton) with other players that are paid to their ability. I would replace Soriano with Fox. I would replace Milton with either Holliday or Abreu or Jason Bay or Carl Crawford depending on the budget of the new owner. I would replace Z with Lackey or Randy Wolf.

[rok]

Z > Wolf and still has the potential to be better than Lackey, at least in my opinion

[vitaminB]

<!--quoteo(post=60984:date=Sep 1 2009, 04:25 PM:name=PcB)-->QUOTE (PcB @ Sep 1 2009, 04:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=60981:date=Sep 1 2009, 03:20 PM:name=Coldneck)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coldneck @ Sep 1 2009, 03:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I would give these players their walking papers:

Soriano
Bradley
Zambrano
possibly Fuk - not sure<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've read this whole thread and I really don't understand your brain.
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I would love to be out from under all of those contracts, with the exception of probably Z.

And you replace them quite easily. Fuld in CF, Fox in RF, find a LFer.