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ruby23 · 04-29-2010, 01:47 PM

There are 100's of college football games that are played for little more than bragging rights and broken-down trophies, some of the best atmospheres and games of the year actually. I don't see this being much different than that, just sayin'.

MrSheps · 04-29-2010, 01:52 PM

QUOTE (Butcher @ Apr 29 2010, 08:08 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I find it interesting that the two guys who live in L.A. (Sheps and Destined) see this as a good thing. And why is that? Maybe it's because Sheps and Destined live thousands of miles away and don't have to deal with the bullshit from Sox fans that guys in Chicago (rok, BT, veryzer, me) have to deal with.
Sorry Butch, I'm usually with you on stuff, but I gotta call total bullshit on that. So I guess we just don't know how hard it is to be a Cubs fan.....<i>in Chicago</i>?? [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rolleyes.gif[/img]

First of all, I grew up in central Illinois where I quite literally chose friends and got into fights throughout childhood based on Cubs or Cardinals allegiance. I realize having to deal with people who don't like your team isn't fun, but I grew up in that atmosphere. Maybe as a result I also grew out of that shit or to a place where it didn't bother me. And if you think Cards fans are better than Sox, keep in mind we were kids, you know, when that shit is supposed to upset you. Oh, and I also lived in Chicago by the way, and go back several times a year, I know what Sox fans are like pre and post their world series victory. I've also been to more than a few Cubs/Sox games. The atmosphere never bothered me, except that obviously it's not vastly Cubs fans which I think is your hangup. I like those games because they feel more like playoff games where everyone is in to every pitch, probably because everyone is into every pitch. And everyone at those games wasn't from LA or from out of town by the way, they were fucking chicagoans, many of whom were going to their one and only games of the season and picked those games. Again, because they are the most popular.

Look, I get it, Sox fans suck and hurt your feelings. But what I find interesting is that you can't deal with 3 games a year where it's not 99% cubs fans at wrigley or where everyone surrounding you isn't cheering for your team. Guess what, that's what it's like being a fan out here. Most of the time I see the Cubs it's in an opponent's stadium. Dodger's fans, particularly the ones in the cheap seats, are just as rough as Sox fans, hell they're more so. You think it's harder to wear a Cubs hat in Chicago than in a town where one, there are some anoying Sox fans, and two, the fans of every other team thinks your team is a fucking joke??

If living here has anything to do with being ok with the most popular series of the year in Chicago, it's probably not because we don't have to deal with Sox fans, it's because we're used to that crap and can function in an environment where everyone doesn't agree with us. Man up, tell the Sox fan next to you suck your balls and enjoy the game. Or I don't know, ignore him and don't let it bother you because you know it shouldn't, it's a game. Or, talk about the bears or the bulls. That's how I always got along with Sox fans, you have common teams. We didn't always get that with Cards fans. Or, avoid the games, it's your right obviously. But, and I say this will all due respect because I know what a great Cubs fan you and everyone here is that agrees with you, but the next time I'm in a bar here or in Chicago and some drunk mouthbreathing Sox fans tells me how Cubs fans are pussies, it's going to be hard not to think of this thread where apparently a group of die hard fans would rather not play the enemy than deal with some ball busting if we lose. Because for all the talk of schedule and interleague being dumb, that's what I'm getting out of this.

***Butcher*** · 04-29-2010, 02:02 PM

So....none of that really has much to do with why I think the crosstown series is stupid and you pretty much ignored every one of my bullet points.

Sorry if I offended you by speculating as to why you and Destined didn't seem to have a problem with the series. I was just connecting the most obvious dots (both of you guys live in L.A.). Apparently I was wrong about that.

Scarey · 04-29-2010, 02:16 PM

QUOTE (Butcher @ Apr 29 2010, 10:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Scarey @ Apr 29 2010, 10:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>What I don't understand is what is the logical reason NOT to have White Sox/Cubs games every year. I don't think the powers that be are going to accept "because it makes Butcher's life miserable for two weeks out of the year". If I was in a position to do something about it Butcher, I would make an effort.

Other than that, what's the logical explanation? The only one I can think of is the fact that the record against the AL is low on the list of tie breakers. I just don't think that's a good enough reason to cease the extra revenue from Cubs/Sox games.
Here's the most logical reason from the Cubs' standpoint, and I've already mentioned it.

We play .486 baseball against the White Sox. The Cardinals play .589 baseball against the Royals. The Cardinals are our biggest rival and competition in the NL Central. We're giving them a built-in advantage every single season (however slight) by playing this retarded series.

If the extra revenue is more important than that, I don't know what to tell you.
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Destined has already explained how Cubs/Sox and interleague games in general are only a part of the problem you're talking about. To single out the Sox/Cubs games is like pointing out the biggest pimple on Rapps ass.

BT · 04-29-2010, 02:26 PM

I'd also argue that most of your assumptions, at least about why I'd rather not play the Sox at all, are flat out wrong.

I'd go see the Cubs play literally any team in the major leagues, AT virtually any park in the major leagues, and have a blast. I've done it. I've gone to Houston, San Diego, Atlanta, New York, Milwaukee, San Francisco, L.A., and Cincinnati have been among the vast minority rooting for the Cubs, and had a blast. The only places I will not go is the Cell, or Wrigley when the Cubs are playing the Sox. I've had my balls busted by fans of pretty much every team in existence. I can handle all of that.

Out of all of them, the only ones I don't want to deal with are Sox fans. The reasons are myriad, but they, as a species, are off the scale annoying. And, as Butch has argued, there is no inherent baseball reason for the Cubs playing the Sox, other than money. They are not in our division. They are not in our league.

I am much happier when we beat the Cardinals, because those games matter. The only joy I take from a Sox win is that it's one less game I have to hear bullshit from Sox fans. If we sweep the Sox, I don't call Sox fans and rub it in their faces. I look at it as having survived another series with the assclowns of baseball.

MrSheps · 04-29-2010, 02:34 PM

QUOTE (Butcher @ Apr 29 2010, 11:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>So....none of that really has much to do with why I think the crosstown series is stupid and you pretty much ignored every one of my bullet points.

Sorry if I offended you by speculating as to why you and Destined didn't seem to have a problem with the series. I was just connecting the most obvious dots (both of you guys live in L.A.). Apparently I was wrong about that.
I wasn't offended, I've just never had the urge to take off my Cubs hat when I land in chicago. (And I usually fly into midway [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif[/img] )The other points were already covered though. What point remains other than Sox fans are cocks and a pain to deal with that we haven't discussed?

-Yes, the Cards usually have a slight advantage playing the Royals. That's why I've said I'd prefer it be one series a year not two. But either way the schedules will never be balanced.

-Interleague is weird because it contributes to an unbalanced schedule. The counter is that inter league is popular so isn't going anywhere, and most sports operate this way.

-The series isn't a real rivalry. The counter is that it's a heated rivalry, and if it was manufactured or not people by and large get way into those games and want those games. I don't know how it's not a rivalry, it's two teams with fanbases that hate one another, that's the definition of a rivalry. Even better, they're in the same part of the country/city. It's Auburn/Alabama. Or if the problem is that they're in different divisions, it's Notre Dame/Michigan.

I'm not sure what else is left that I ignored?

***Butcher*** · 04-29-2010, 02:47 PM

QUOTE (BT @ Apr 29 2010, 01:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I'd also argue that most of your assumptions, at least about why I'd rather not play the Sox at all, are flat out wrong.

I'd go see the Cubs play literally any team in the major leagues, AT virtually any park in the major leagues, and have a blast. I've done it. I've gone to Houston, San Diego, Atlanta, New York, Milwaukee, San Francisco, L.A., and Cincinnati have been among the vast minority rooting for the Cubs, and had a blast. The only places I will not go is the Cell, or Wrigley when the Cubs are playing the Sox. I've had my balls busted by fans of pretty much every team in existence. I can handle all of that.

Out of all of them, the only ones I don't want to deal with are Sox fans. The reasons are myriad, but they, as a species, are off the scale annoying. And, as Butch has argued, there is no inherent baseball reason for the Cubs playing the Sox, other than money. They are not in our division. They are not in our league.

I am much happier when we beat the Cardinals, because those games matter. The only joy I take from a Sox win is that it's one less game I have to hear bullshit from Sox fans. If we sweep the Sox, I don't call Sox fans and rub it in their faces. I look at it as having survived another series with the assclowns of baseball.
BT is my soulmate.

Destined · 04-29-2010, 02:48 PM

QUOTE (MrSheps @ Apr 29 2010, 10:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Apr 29 2010, 08:08 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I find it interesting that the two guys who live in L.A. (Sheps and Destined) see this as a good thing. And why is that? Maybe it's because Sheps and Destined live thousands of miles away and don't have to deal with the bullshit from Sox fans that guys in Chicago (rok, BT, veryzer, me) have to deal with.
Sorry Butch, I'm usually with you on stuff, but I gotta call total bullshit on that. So I guess we just don't know how hard it is to be a Cubs fan.....<i>in Chicago</i>?? [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rolleyes.gif[/img]

First of all, I grew up in central Illinois where I quite literally chose friends and got into fights throughout childhood based on Cubs or Cardinals allegiance. I realize having to deal with people who don't like your team isn't fun, but I grew up in that atmosphere. Maybe as a result I also grew out of that shit or to a place where it didn't bother me. And if you think Cards fans are better than Sox, keep in mind we were kids, you know, when that shit is supposed to upset you. Oh, and I also lived in Chicago by the way, and go back several times a year, I know what Sox fans are like pre and post their world series victory. I've also been to more than a few Cubs/Sox games. The atmosphere never bothered me, except that obviously it's not vastly Cubs fans which I think is your hangup. I like those games because they feel more like playoff games where everyone is in to every pitch, probably because everyone is into every pitch. And everyone at those games wasn't from LA or from out of town by the way, they were fucking chicagoans, many of whom were going to their one and only games of the season and picked those games. Again, because they are the most popular.

Look, I get it, Sox fans suck and hurt your feelings. But what I find interesting is that you can't deal with 3 games a year where it's not 99% cubs fans at wrigley or where everyone surrounding you isn't cheering for your team. Guess what, that's what it's like being a fan out here. Most of the time I see the Cubs it's in an opponent's stadium. Dodger's fans, particularly the ones in the cheap seats, are just as rough as Sox fans, hell they're more so. You think it's harder to wear a Cubs hat in Chicago than in a town where one, there are some anoying Sox fans, and two, the fans of every other team thinks your team is a fucking joke??

If living here has anything to do with being ok with the most popular series of the year in Chicago, it's probably not because we don't have to deal with Sox fans, it's because we're used to that crap and can function in an environment where everyone doesn't agree with us. Man up, tell the Sox fan next to you suck your balls and enjoy the game. Or I don't know, ignore him and don't let it bother you because you know it shouldn't, it's a game. Or, talk about the bears or the bulls. That's how I always got along with Sox fans, you have common teams. We didn't always get that with Cards fans. Or, avoid the games, it's your right obviously. But, and I say this will all due respect because I know what a great Cubs fan you and everyone here is that agrees with you, but the next time I'm in a bar here or in Chicago and some drunk mouthbreathing Sox fans tells me how Cubs fans are pussies, it's going to be hard not to think of this thread where apparently a group of die hard fans would rather not play the enemy than deal with some ball busting if we lose. Because for all the talk of schedule and interleague being dumb, that's what I'm getting out of this.
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Completely agree.

Butch, being a Cub fan at a Cubs/Sox game for you is like being at Cubs/Dodgers for me. If we win, I'm happy at the overall picture, and I'm not going to rub it in the faces of Dodger fans. But if we lose, I'm going to hear shit all night and the whole next week, because my team sucks and the Dodgers are heaven sent. That's the same thing, Butcher. I've had my car vandalized at Dodger Stadium, been yelled at in the bleachers, been told to go home in San Diego and made fun of and laughed at in front of a whole college lecture because a kid insisted I remember James Loney's grand slam. Yet, I've never gone out of my way to go up to someone and ridicule them because they love the Dodgers. Because of this, I hate that fucking franchise much like you hate the Sox, because of the similar experiences that you have. However, I don't hate the series between the Cubs-Dodgers because I see the importance of it, just like I see an importance with a Cubs-Sox series if Interleague play is going to continue.

<b>IF</b> we are going to have Interleague play, then the Cubs-Sox series is a must. It only makes sense. It's a local rivalry that, for the most part, gets fans into it and brings attention to both clubs. With that said, the series is <b>ONLY </b>needed if we're going to have Interleague play. Many of the issues you guys bring up about the series are about Interleague play in general, and not just the Sox. The Cards-Royals advantage is the result of Interleague play. So if you guys are arguing against Interleague play, great, then that's the argument against having a Cubs-Sox rivalry, not because people don't like playing the Sox because they're the Sox and their fans.

MrSheps · 04-29-2010, 02:49 PM

QUOTE (BT @ Apr 29 2010, 11:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Out of all of them, the only ones I don't want to deal with are Sox fans. The reasons are myriad, but they, as a species, are off the scale annoying. And, as Butch has argued, there is no inherent baseball reason for the Cubs playing the Sox, other than money. They are not in our division. They are not in our league.

I am much happier when we beat the Cardinals, because those games matter. The only joy I take from a Sox win is that it's one less game I have to hear bullshit from Sox fans. If we sweep the Sox, I don't call Sox fans and rub it in their faces. I look at it as having survived another series with the assclowns of baseball.
So the core argument is still that Sox fans are unbearable dicks, right? Because it does matter when we beat the Sox, it counts as a win. It's like if the Bears beat the Jets. You'd rather beat the Packers so that a division foe gets a loss while you get a win, but the win is still a win. That's the inherent baseball reason. And money isn't the only thing driving it, fans want it. I get that not all fans do, but the vast majority of Cubs fans would be upset if the series went away, we can agree on that right?

Maybe I've just been lucky and had good experiences at Cubs/Sox games and you guys have had the opposite. But I know my friends in Chicago always go to those games or at least try to, a couple of them even go to the Cell.

***Butcher*** · 04-29-2010, 02:51 PM

QUOTE (MrSheps @ Apr 29 2010, 01:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Apr 29 2010, 11:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>So....none of that really has much to do with why I think the crosstown series is stupid and you pretty much ignored every one of my bullet points.

Sorry if I offended you by speculating as to why you and Destined didn't seem to have a problem with the series. I was just connecting the most obvious dots (both of you guys live in L.A.). Apparently I was wrong about that.
I wasn't offended, I've just never had the urge to take off my Cubs hat when I land in chicago. (And I usually fly into midway [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif[/img] )The other points were already covered though. What point remains other than Sox fans are cocks and a pain to deal with that we haven't discussed?

-Yes, the Cards usually have a slight advantage playing the Royals. That's why I've said I'd prefer it be one series a year not two. But either way the schedules will never be balanced.

-Interleague is weird because it contributes to an unbalanced schedule. The counter is that inter league is popular so isn't going anywhere, and most sports operate this way.

-The series isn't a real rivalry. The counter is that it's a heated rivalry, and if it was manufactured or not people by and large get way into those games and want those games. I don't know how it's not a rivalry, it's two teams with fanbases that hate one another, that's the definition of a rivalry. Even better, they're in the same part of the country/city. It's Auburn/Alabama. Or if the problem is that they're in different divisions, it's Notre Dame/Michigan.

I'm not sure what else is left that I ignored?
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Have I ever said that I've had the urge to take off my Cubs hat anywhere? I wear my Cubs hat everywhere I go -- I don't give a shit about that.

I'm not going to argue that a lot of people don't like the games or that it isn't a popular series -- that has never been my position. They do like them. And it is popular. And it isn't going anywhere.

I'm just expressing why I think it's stupid and why I wish it would go away. All of my reasons (except one of them, perhaps) are valid. Unfortunately, money (as usual) is the deciding factor.

***Butcher*** · 04-29-2010, 02:59 PM

QUOTE I get that not all fans do, but the vast majority of Cubs fans would be upset if the series went away, we can agree on that right?
<i>Vast</i> majority? I'm actually not sure if we can agree on that. Most (not all) of the Cubs fans I know are either indifferent to the series or dislike it. I'd much rather see a Cubs/Cards game than a Cubs/Sox game -- and most (not all) Cubs fans I know feel the same.

Scarey · 04-29-2010, 03:03 PM

QUOTE (Butcher @ Apr 29 2010, 01:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE I get that not all fans do, but the vast majority of Cubs fans would be upset if the series went away, we can agree on that right?
<i>Vast</i> majority? I'm actually not sure if we can agree on that. Most (not all) of the Cubs fans I know are either indifferent to the series or dislike it. I'd much rather see a Cubs/Cards game than a Cubs/Sox game -- and most (not all) Cubs fans I know feel the same.
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Just because I would rather see a Cubs/Cards game than a Cubs/Sox game doesn't mean I wouldn't be upset if the Cubs/Sox games were eliminated. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't exactly go cry in my pillow. But I have to admit, although there's not really a logical reason for it, I'm a little more interested when a Cubs/Sox series rolls around.

***Butcher*** · 04-29-2010, 03:04 PM

QUOTE (Scarey @ Apr 29 2010, 02:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Apr 29 2010, 01:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE I get that not all fans do, but the vast majority of Cubs fans would be upset if the series went away, we can agree on that right?
<i>Vast</i> majority? I'm actually not sure if we can agree on that. Most (not all) of the Cubs fans I know are either indifferent to the series or dislike it. I'd much rather see a Cubs/Cards game than a Cubs/Sox game -- and most (not all) Cubs fans I know feel the same.
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Just because I would rather see a Cubs/Cards game than a Cubs/Sox game doesn't mean I wouldn't be upset if the Cubs/Sox games were eliminated. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't exactly go cry in my pillow. But I have to admit, although there's not really a logical reason for it, I'm a little more interested when a Cubs/Sox series rolls around.
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I've already said that I know there are people like you. I'm just not sure you represent the vast majority.

Destined · 04-29-2010, 03:06 PM

QUOTE (Scarey @ Apr 29 2010, 12:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Apr 29 2010, 01:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE I get that not all fans do, but the vast majority of Cubs fans would be upset if the series went away, we can agree on that right?
<i>Vast</i> majority? I'm actually not sure if we can agree on that. Most (not all) of the Cubs fans I know are either indifferent to the series or dislike it. I'd much rather see a Cubs/Cards game than a Cubs/Sox game -- and most (not all) Cubs fans I know feel the same.
</div>

Just because I would rather see a Cubs/Cards game than a Cubs/Sox game doesn't mean I wouldn't be upset if the Cubs/Sox games were eliminated. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't exactly go cry in my pillow. But I have to admit, although there's not really a logical reason for it, I'm a little more interested when a Cubs/Sox series rolls around.
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Agreed.

Of course, the Cubs/Cards series is far and away the most meaningful rivalry. It's the classic one. The Cubs/Sox is new and non-traditional, but it's still exciting.

***Butcher*** · 04-29-2010, 03:08 PM

QUOTE (cherp @ Apr 26 2010, 10:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Apr 26 2010, 10:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Just more pandering to the stupid.

No kidding - this "rivalry" already sucks. These games already suck. Let's make more out of these games....fucking dumb.

This is more marketing bullshit. I haven't heard a single fan on either side clamouring for this kind of crap. Why are the marketing people pushing it on us?
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And let me go ahead and quote this post from our Resident Sox Fan from earlier in the thread.

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