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<!--quoteo(post=5447:date=Dec 17 2008, 10:14 AM:name=Clapp)-->QUOTE (Clapp @ Dec 17 2008, 10:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=5446:date=Dec 17 2008, 11:11 AM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Dec 17 2008, 11:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=5442:date=Dec 17 2008, 09:59 AM:name=Clapp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Clapp @ Dec 17 2008, 09:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=5440:date=Dec 17 2008, 09:58 AM:name=Fella)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Fella @ Dec 17 2008, 09:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=5437:date=Dec 17 2008, 08:55 AM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Dec 17 2008, 08:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=5432:date=Dec 17 2008, 09:49 AM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Dec 17 2008, 09:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=5430:date=Dec 17 2008, 09:47 AM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Dec 17 2008, 09:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Let me expand the Sosa/Dunn comparison a little...
These are their career 162 game averages:
Dunn:
137 hits, 40 HR, 29 2B, 96 RBI, 114 BB, 180 K, 3 SF
Sosa:
166 hits, 42 HR, 26 2B, 115 RBI, 64 BB, 159 K, 5 SF
Pretty fucking close, really.
Sosa averaged about 30 more hits per season, but Dunn averages about 50 more walks. Dunn hits more doubles, they hit about the same amount of homers, Sosa hit about 19 more RBI, and struck out about 21 fewer times.
I'm not arguing that Dunn is as good of a player as Sosa was -- he isn't. But it isn't as far off as you might think...<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
now compare them in their primes. sosa was pretty shitty his first few years. then he became exactly like dunn is now, but with speed and better fielding, then he became something that dunn will never be.
compare them in their primes. it's way more far off than you may think.
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Yeah -- Dunn will never have a season like Sosa did in the late 90s/early 00s -- but that was a different era. If Dunn played during that same period (yeah -- he was a rookie in 2001), who knows?
Anyway, I'm comparing Dunn to one of the most prolific offensive players to ever put on a uniform. And the fact that I can even make an argument should tell you something.
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But the only time Sosa was so prolific was between 1998 and 2002, and Dunn has never been even remotely close to what Sosa did for those 5 years.
Those are the kinda of ridiculous comparisons that have caused all the Dunn hate.
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Indeed.
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All I'm trying to do is respond to the folks who think Dunn has no value. That's just insane.
And I don't care if people "hate" Dunn or not. Hate away.
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Dunn has value without question for teams in need of power and guys that get on base, especially in the American League where you don't have to worry about his defense.
We should be the last team interested in him with the way we're built. A couple years ago, that might not be the case.
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Then we agree.
But you can still eat my ass. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wub.gif[/img]
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I can also agree with that, even though Dunn is still not my ideal ballplayer. He has plenty of value in the right situation.
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<!--quoteo(post=5451:date=Dec 17 2008, 09:38 AM:name=rok)-->QUOTE (rok @ Dec 17 2008, 09:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I can also agree with that, even though Dunn is still not my ideal ballplayer. He has plenty of value in the right situation.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed, in fact I'd go as far as saying I wouldn't mind if he replaced Lee at 1B (Don't kill me Clapp [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/ph34r.gif[/img] )
If you put him in the 6th hole, let him hit a bunch of bombs and walk to turn the lineup over he can be a valuable guy.
As our situation is right now though, I don't think he is really even an option.
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<!--quoteo(post=5459:date=Dec 17 2008, 11:20 AM:name=Fella)-->QUOTE (Fella @ Dec 17 2008, 11:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=5451:date=Dec 17 2008, 09:38 AM:name=rok)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rok @ Dec 17 2008, 09:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I can also agree with that, even though Dunn is still not my ideal ballplayer. He has plenty of value in the right situation.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed, in fact I'd go as far as saying I wouldn't mind if he replaced Lee at 1B (Don't kill me Clapp [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/ph34r.gif[/img] )
If you put him in the 6th hole, let him hit a bunch of bombs and walk to turn the lineup over he can be a valuable guy.
As our situation is right now though, I don't think he is really even an option.
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No way in hell would I want Dunn at 1st base everyday.
@TheBlogfines
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dunn has some value. limited value. at best.
Wang.
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To fire up the Abreu's defense discussion and the scouts' eyes/defensive metrics argument.
<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec--><b>Although the defensive metrics suggest otherwise, several scouts said Abreu looked better in right field this year after losing some weight.</b> But he turns 35 in March, and the biggest rap against him -- an aversion to walls -- persists.
"I don't want to say he's scared of them," the AL scout said. "But his field awareness is a little shaky. He's always had that problem, and he's never gotten any better."
Greenberg, making the best of a potential drawback, is trying to use Abreu's status as the anti-Aaron Rowand as a selling point. While Abreu is skittish around fences, he also doesn't spend much time in the trainer's room.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Link.
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<!--quoteo(post=5779:date=Dec 18 2008, 11:19 AM:name=HTC)-->QUOTE (HTC @ Dec 18 2008, 11:19 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->To fire up the Abreu's defense discussion and the scouts' eyes/defensive metrics argument.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <!--quotec--><b>Although the defensive metrics suggest otherwise, several scouts said Abreu looked better in right field this year after losing some weight.</b> But he turns 35 in March, and the biggest rap against him -- an aversion to walls -- persists.
"I don't want to say he's scared of them," the AL scout said. "But his field awareness is a little shaky. He's always had that problem, and he's never gotten any better."
Greenberg, making the best of a potential drawback, is trying to use Abreu's status as the anti-Aaron Rowand as a selling point. While Abreu is skittish around fences, he also doesn't spend much time in the trainer's room.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Link.
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His defense will be fine. As a left handed bat in the middle of the lineup he'll help more than being a gold glove candidate. We have Fuk, who we can keep in right if we look into defense too much.
I hate my pretentious sounding username too.
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His defense won't be fine. Guys in their mid-30's who've lost a step don't suddenly become kick-ass defenders...they usually go from bad to worse.
And if we're going to have a defensive black hole in RF, at least get one who kicks holy ass offensively. Like that Dunn guy, for example.
Or Bradley, I guess. At least he'll be an excellent defender in the 100-105 games he suits up for.
Abreu should be a distant 3rd choice for us. Distant.
There's nothing better than to realize that the good things about youth don't end with youth itself. It's a matter of realizing that life can be renewed every day you get out of bed without baggage. It's tough to get there, but it's better than the dark thoughts. -Lance
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Aberu could be so much worse. He's not Bonds out there. He still has an arm too.
I hate my pretentious sounding username too.
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Abreu could be a nice #3 hitter (if we finally drop Lee down to #5 where he belongs) and I think he'd be at least adequate in RF. He's my 2nd choice after Bradley.
My biggest problem with Abreu is his asking price.
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<!--quoteo(post=5819:date=Dec 18 2008, 03:22 PM:name=rok)-->QUOTE (rok @ Dec 18 2008, 03:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Abreu could be a nice #3 hitter (if we finally drop Lee down to #5 where he belongs) and I think he'd be at least adequate in RF. He's my 2nd choice after Bradley.
My biggest problem with Abreu is his asking price.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If his asking price is in line, I'll still take Abreu in a heartbeat.
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<!--quoteo(post=5819:date=Dec 18 2008, 03:22 PM:name=rok)-->QUOTE (rok @ Dec 18 2008, 03:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Abreu could be a nice #3 hitter (if we finally drop Lee down to #5 where he belongs) and I think he'd be at least adequate in RF. He's my 2nd choice after Bradley.
My biggest problem with Abreu is his asking price.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Rok,
I would actually be interested in a serious answer from you about this question: why would you prefer we sign Abreu for, say 3 years, when we could Dunn for about the same price.
I consider you to be a highly intelligent fellow; plus, you work with <i>numbers</i> for a living.
Ties:
-they both are super-picky hitters who annoy folks who think they should swing more often.
Yet both guys average 100 RBI's every year.
-they both are bad fielders. Dunn is coming off a year where he improved his fielding by quite a bit, and Abreu is coming off a year where his fielding tanked. Abreu has a better rep with the glove, but he's also much older, and is declining rapidly. I'd say about even.
-they are both slow and lumbering, yet competent on the basepaths. (although Dunn is both more intimidating (for DP break-ups), and younger.
Advantage Abreu:
-name one.
Advantage Dunn:
-hits twice as many home runs as Abreu does. Literally, double the amount.
-is six years younger. Thus, instead of being past his prime, like Abreu, he's at the peak of his prime.
-three years from now, he'll be 31, while Abreu will be 37 or 38.
If you just don't like the way he looks, or he once dated your sister or something, that's a perfectly fine answer for why you don't want him on the Cubs.
But is there an actual <i>baseball</i> answer?
There's nothing better than to realize that the good things about youth don't end with youth itself. It's a matter of realizing that life can be renewed every day you get out of bed without baggage. It's tough to get there, but it's better than the dark thoughts. -Lance
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<!--quoteo(post=5821:date=Dec 18 2008, 03:39 PM:name=Rappster)-->QUOTE (Rappster @ Dec 18 2008, 03:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=5819:date=Dec 18 2008, 03:22 PM:name=rok)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rok @ Dec 18 2008, 03:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Abreu could be a nice #3 hitter (if we finally drop Lee down to #5 where he belongs) and I think he'd be at least adequate in RF. He's my 2nd choice after Bradley.
My biggest problem with Abreu is his asking price.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If his asking price is in line, I'll still take Abreu in a heartbeat.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Same here. I think he would be a nice fit here, even though his power numbers have gone down considerably in recent years, hje might see a nice boost here. You can never have enough guys who work counts and consistently average .300/.400 and 100 RBI a season with some pop.
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<!--quoteo(post=5823:date=Dec 18 2008, 03:42 PM:name=KBwsb)-->QUOTE (KBwsb @ Dec 18 2008, 03:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=5819:date=Dec 18 2008, 03:22 PM:name=rok)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rok @ Dec 18 2008, 03:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Abreu could be a nice #3 hitter (if we finally drop Lee down to #5 where he belongs) and I think he'd be at least adequate in RF. He's my 2nd choice after Bradley.
My biggest problem with Abreu is his asking price.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Rok,
I would actually be interested in a serious answer from you about this question: why would you prefer we sign Abreu for, say 3 years, when we could Dunn for about the same price.
I consider you to be a highly intelligent fellow; plus, you work with <i>numbers</i> for a living.
Ties:
-they both are super-picky hitters who annoy folks who think they should swing more often.
Yet both guys average 100 RBI's every year.
-they both are bad fielders. Dunn is coming off a year where he improved his fielding by quite a bit, and Abreu is coming off a year where his fielding tanked. Abreu has a better rep with the glove, but he's also much older, and is declining rapidly. I'd say about even.
-they are both slow and lumbering, yet competent on the basepaths. (although Dunn is both more intimidating (for DP break-ups), and younger.
Advantage Abreu:
-name one.
Advantage Dunn:
-hits twice as many home runs as Abreu does. Literally, double the amount.
-is six years younger. Thus, instead of being past his prime, like Abreu, he's at the peak of his prime.
-three years from now, he'll be 31, while Abreu will be 37 or 38.
If you just don't like the way he looks, or he once dated your sister or something, that's a perfectly fine answer for why you don't want him on the Cubs.
But is there an actual <i>baseball</i> answer?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dunn is just not my ideal ballplayer for this team. I don't disagree with many of your points (though Abreu averages 20 SB a season, and Dunn never comes close to that, and Abreu IMO is still a better RF with a much stronger arm from what I've seen with my own eyes and from career #s), and Abreu isn't by any means perfect and is getting older too (5 year difference in age actually). I just like Abreu in a shorter contract. I don't see Dunn getting much better once he hits his 30s, and I would never want to sign him long term.
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KB, I am not going to argue with you about the virtues of Adam Dunn....all I know though, is if we are deciding among Adam Dunn or Bobby Abreu, I would much rather have Abreu. I would much rather have a hitter that bats .300 every year with a OPS of .900 instead of a guy who is going to hit .240 with a OPS of .900. Call me crazy, but I like the guy who puts the ball in play.
Before anyone says putting the ball in play means for double plays...Abreu averages less than 10 a year for his ENTIRE career.
I honestly think I may want Abreu over Bradley...at least you have a good idea that you are getting 140+ games out of Abreu. As for him being afraid of the wall.....I would rather he let up before the wall instead of running into the bricks at full speed.
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