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Ibanez to Phillies
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12-17-2008, 11:35 AM
bt, you've made some decent points, but none of them will ever convince me that dunns negatives far outweigh his positives. not even point that his 200 strikeouts are somehow a good thing. dunn walks. good for him. i like it. dunn hits home runs. i like home runs. dunn does nothing else. nothing. he doesn't even hit sac flies. sorry, he's not good.
Wang.
12-17-2008, 11:39 AM
<!--quoteo(post=5416:date=Dec 17 2008, 09:35 AM:name=veryzer)-->QUOTE (veryzer @ Dec 17 2008, 09:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->bt, you've made some decent points, but none of them will ever convince me that dunns negatives far outweigh his positives. not even point that his 200 strikeouts are somehow a good thing. dunn walks. good for him. i like it. dunn hits home runs. i like home runs. dunn does nothing else. nothing. he doesn't even hit sac flies. sorry, he's not good.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You know who else used to strike out a lot/walk a lot/hit a lot of home runs/not many sac flies? Sammy Sosa. Just sayin'.
12-17-2008, 11:43 AM
<!--quoteo(post=5420:date=Dec 17 2008, 09:39 AM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Dec 17 2008, 09:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=5416:date=Dec 17 2008, 09:35 AM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Dec 17 2008, 09:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->bt, you've made some decent points, but none of them will ever convince me that dunns negatives far outweigh his positives. not even point that his 200 strikeouts are somehow a good thing. dunn walks. good for him. i like it. dunn hits home runs. i like home runs. dunn does nothing else. nothing. he doesn't even hit sac flies. sorry, he's not good.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You know who else used to strike out a lot/walk a lot/hit a lot of home runs/not many sac flies? Sammy Sosa. Just sayin'. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> when dunn hits 60 home runs, drives in 160 runs (on some bad teams), steals some bases, plays an adequate (if not btter) defense, and bats .300, maybe i'll cut him slack. ain't gonna happen though. just sayin'.
Wang.
12-17-2008, 11:45 AM
<!--quoteo(post=5420:date=Dec 17 2008, 09:39 AM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Dec 17 2008, 09:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=5416:date=Dec 17 2008, 09:35 AM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Dec 17 2008, 09:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->bt, you've made some decent points, but none of them will ever convince me that dunns negatives far outweigh his positives. not even point that his 200 strikeouts are somehow a good thing. dunn walks. good for him. i like it. dunn hits home runs. i like home runs. dunn does nothing else. nothing. he doesn't even hit sac flies. sorry, he's not good.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You know who else used to strike out a lot/walk a lot/hit a lot of home runs/not many sac flies? Sammy Sosa. Just sayin'. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> But he still had a decent BA most of the time and for a good portion of his career was a pretty good OF until he lost his cannon for an arm after he bulked up. Is it too much to ask that a corner OF hit for average as well as maintain a high OBP and at least not be a disaster in the OF?
12-17-2008, 11:45 AM
<!--quoteo(post=5420:date=Dec 17 2008, 09:39 AM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Dec 17 2008, 09:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=5416:date=Dec 17 2008, 09:35 AM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Dec 17 2008, 09:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->bt, you've made some decent points, but none of them will ever convince me that dunns negatives far outweigh his positives. not even point that his 200 strikeouts are somehow a good thing. dunn walks. good for him. i like it. dunn hits home runs. i like home runs. dunn does nothing else. nothing. he doesn't even hit sac flies. sorry, he's not good.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You know who else used to strike out a lot/walk a lot/hit a lot of home runs/not many sac flies? Sammy Sosa. Just sayin'. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sammy was a .300 hitter in his good days, something Dunn will never sniff.
@TheBlogfines
12-17-2008, 11:47 AM
Let me expand the Sosa/Dunn comparison a little...
These are their career 162 game averages: Dunn: 137 hits, 40 HR, 29 2B, 96 RBI, 114 BB, 180 K, 3 SF Sosa: 166 hits, 42 HR, 26 2B, 115 RBI, 64 BB, 159 K, 5 SF Pretty fucking close, really. Sosa averaged about 30 more hits per season, but Dunn averages about 50 more walks. Dunn hits more doubles, they hit about the same amount of homers, Sosa hit about 19 more RBI, and struck out about 21 fewer times. I'm not arguing that Dunn is as good of a player as Sosa was -- he isn't. But it isn't as far off as you might think...
12-17-2008, 11:49 AM
<!--quoteo(post=5430:date=Dec 17 2008, 09:47 AM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Dec 17 2008, 09:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Let me expand the Sosa/Dunn comparison a little...
These are their career 162 game averages: Dunn: 137 hits, 40 HR, 29 2B, 96 RBI, 114 BB, 180 K, 3 SF Sosa: 166 hits, 42 HR, 26 2B, 115 RBI, 64 BB, 159 K, 5 SF Pretty fucking close, really. Sosa averaged about 30 more hits per season, but Dunn averages about 50 more walks. Dunn hits more doubles, they hit about the same amount of homers, Sosa hit about 19 more RBI, and struck out about 21 fewer times. I'm not arguing that Dunn is as good of a player as Sosa was -- he isn't. But it isn't as far off as you might think...<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--> now compare them in their primes. sosa was pretty shitty his first few years. then he became exactly like dunn is now, but with speed and better fielding, then he became something that dunn will never be. compare them in their primes. it's way more far off than you may think.
Wang.
12-17-2008, 11:55 AM
<!--quoteo(post=5432:date=Dec 17 2008, 09:49 AM:name=veryzer)-->QUOTE (veryzer @ Dec 17 2008, 09:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=5430:date=Dec 17 2008, 09:47 AM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Dec 17 2008, 09:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Let me expand the Sosa/Dunn comparison a little...
These are their career 162 game averages: Dunn: 137 hits, 40 HR, 29 2B, 96 RBI, 114 BB, 180 K, 3 SF Sosa: 166 hits, 42 HR, 26 2B, 115 RBI, 64 BB, 159 K, 5 SF Pretty fucking close, really. Sosa averaged about 30 more hits per season, but Dunn averages about 50 more walks. Dunn hits more doubles, they hit about the same amount of homers, Sosa hit about 19 more RBI, and struck out about 21 fewer times. I'm not arguing that Dunn is as good of a player as Sosa was -- he isn't. But it isn't as far off as you might think...<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--> now compare them in their primes. sosa was pretty shitty his first few years. then he became exactly like dunn is now, but with speed and better fielding, then he became something that dunn will never be. compare them in their primes. it's way more far off than you may think. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah -- Dunn will never have a season like Sosa did in the late 90s/early 00s -- but that was a different era. If Dunn played during that same period (yeah -- he was a rookie in 2001), who knows? Anyway, I'm comparing Dunn to one of the most prolific offensive players to ever put on a uniform. And the fact that I can even make an argument should tell you something.
12-17-2008, 11:58 AM
<!--quoteo(post=5437:date=Dec 17 2008, 09:55 AM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Dec 17 2008, 09:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=5432:date=Dec 17 2008, 09:49 AM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Dec 17 2008, 09:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=5430:date=Dec 17 2008, 09:47 AM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Dec 17 2008, 09:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Let me expand the Sosa/Dunn comparison a little...
These are their career 162 game averages: Dunn: 137 hits, 40 HR, 29 2B, 96 RBI, 114 BB, 180 K, 3 SF Sosa: 166 hits, 42 HR, 26 2B, 115 RBI, 64 BB, 159 K, 5 SF Pretty fucking close, really. Sosa averaged about 30 more hits per season, but Dunn averages about 50 more walks. Dunn hits more doubles, they hit about the same amount of homers, Sosa hit about 19 more RBI, and struck out about 21 fewer times. I'm not arguing that Dunn is as good of a player as Sosa was -- he isn't. But it isn't as far off as you might think...<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--> now compare them in their primes. sosa was pretty shitty his first few years. then he became exactly like dunn is now, but with speed and better fielding, then he became something that dunn will never be. compare them in their primes. it's way more far off than you may think. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah -- Dunn will never have a season like Sosa did in the late 90s/early 00s -- but that was a different era. If Dunn played during that same period (yeah -- he was a rookie in 2001), who knows? Anyway, I'm comparing Dunn to one of the most prolific offensive players to ever put on a uniform. And the fact that I can even make an argument should tell you something. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> with all due respect, it's really not much of an argument. dunn shouldn't even be in the same sentence as sosa. before 1998, you could make that comparison, but after 1998? not so much.
Wang.
12-17-2008, 11:58 AM
<!--quoteo(post=5437:date=Dec 17 2008, 08:55 AM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Dec 17 2008, 08:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=5432:date=Dec 17 2008, 09:49 AM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Dec 17 2008, 09:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=5430:date=Dec 17 2008, 09:47 AM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Dec 17 2008, 09:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Let me expand the Sosa/Dunn comparison a little...
These are their career 162 game averages: Dunn: 137 hits, 40 HR, 29 2B, 96 RBI, 114 BB, 180 K, 3 SF Sosa: 166 hits, 42 HR, 26 2B, 115 RBI, 64 BB, 159 K, 5 SF Pretty fucking close, really. Sosa averaged about 30 more hits per season, but Dunn averages about 50 more walks. Dunn hits more doubles, they hit about the same amount of homers, Sosa hit about 19 more RBI, and struck out about 21 fewer times. I'm not arguing that Dunn is as good of a player as Sosa was -- he isn't. But it isn't as far off as you might think...<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--> now compare them in their primes. sosa was pretty shitty his first few years. then he became exactly like dunn is now, but with speed and better fielding, then he became something that dunn will never be. compare them in their primes. it's way more far off than you may think. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah -- Dunn will never have a season like Sosa did in the late 90s/early 00s -- but that was a different era. If Dunn played during that same period (yeah -- he was a rookie in 2001), who knows? Anyway, I'm comparing Dunn to one of the most prolific offensive players to ever put on a uniform. And the fact that I can even make an argument should tell you something. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> But the only time Sosa was so prolific was between 1998 and 2002, and Dunn has never been even remotely close to what Sosa did for those 5 years. Those are the kinda of ridiculous comparisons that have caused all the Dunn hate.
12-17-2008, 11:59 AM
Let me just add (even though I've said so before) that I don't think Dunn is a great fit for the Cubs right now. And I don't think Adam Dunn is a Hall of Famer, by any stretch of the imagination.
But when people say that he isn't good...well, I can't just stand idly by. Does he have glaring weaknesses? Yes. Is he All-Star good in other areas? Yes.
12-17-2008, 11:59 AM
<!--quoteo(post=5440:date=Dec 17 2008, 09:58 AM:name=Fella)-->QUOTE (Fella @ Dec 17 2008, 09:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=5437:date=Dec 17 2008, 08:55 AM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Dec 17 2008, 08:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=5432:date=Dec 17 2008, 09:49 AM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Dec 17 2008, 09:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=5430:date=Dec 17 2008, 09:47 AM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Dec 17 2008, 09:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Let me expand the Sosa/Dunn comparison a little...
These are their career 162 game averages: Dunn: 137 hits, 40 HR, 29 2B, 96 RBI, 114 BB, 180 K, 3 SF Sosa: 166 hits, 42 HR, 26 2B, 115 RBI, 64 BB, 159 K, 5 SF Pretty fucking close, really. Sosa averaged about 30 more hits per season, but Dunn averages about 50 more walks. Dunn hits more doubles, they hit about the same amount of homers, Sosa hit about 19 more RBI, and struck out about 21 fewer times. I'm not arguing that Dunn is as good of a player as Sosa was -- he isn't. But it isn't as far off as you might think...<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--> now compare them in their primes. sosa was pretty shitty his first few years. then he became exactly like dunn is now, but with speed and better fielding, then he became something that dunn will never be. compare them in their primes. it's way more far off than you may think. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah -- Dunn will never have a season like Sosa did in the late 90s/early 00s -- but that was a different era. If Dunn played during that same period (yeah -- he was a rookie in 2001), who knows? Anyway, I'm comparing Dunn to one of the most prolific offensive players to ever put on a uniform. And the fact that I can even make an argument should tell you something. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> But the only time Sosa was so prolific was between 1998 and 2002, and Dunn has never been even remotely close to what Sosa did for those 5 years. Those are the kinda of ridiculous comparisons that have caused all the Dunn hate. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Indeed.
@TheBlogfines
12-17-2008, 12:08 PM
I'm going to defer to the market to decide what Dunn's value is. Let's wait and see what sort of contract he ends up with and which league shows the most interest. I'd imagine most NL teams will pass on him, and correctly so.
12-17-2008, 12:11 PM
<!--quoteo(post=5442:date=Dec 17 2008, 09:59 AM:name=Clapp)-->QUOTE (Clapp @ Dec 17 2008, 09:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=5440:date=Dec 17 2008, 09:58 AM:name=Fella)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Fella @ Dec 17 2008, 09:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=5437:date=Dec 17 2008, 08:55 AM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Dec 17 2008, 08:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=5432:date=Dec 17 2008, 09:49 AM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Dec 17 2008, 09:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=5430:date=Dec 17 2008, 09:47 AM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Dec 17 2008, 09:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Let me expand the Sosa/Dunn comparison a little...
These are their career 162 game averages: Dunn: 137 hits, 40 HR, 29 2B, 96 RBI, 114 BB, 180 K, 3 SF Sosa: 166 hits, 42 HR, 26 2B, 115 RBI, 64 BB, 159 K, 5 SF Pretty fucking close, really. Sosa averaged about 30 more hits per season, but Dunn averages about 50 more walks. Dunn hits more doubles, they hit about the same amount of homers, Sosa hit about 19 more RBI, and struck out about 21 fewer times. I'm not arguing that Dunn is as good of a player as Sosa was -- he isn't. But it isn't as far off as you might think...<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--> now compare them in their primes. sosa was pretty shitty his first few years. then he became exactly like dunn is now, but with speed and better fielding, then he became something that dunn will never be. compare them in their primes. it's way more far off than you may think. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah -- Dunn will never have a season like Sosa did in the late 90s/early 00s -- but that was a different era. If Dunn played during that same period (yeah -- he was a rookie in 2001), who knows? Anyway, I'm comparing Dunn to one of the most prolific offensive players to ever put on a uniform. And the fact that I can even make an argument should tell you something. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> But the only time Sosa was so prolific was between 1998 and 2002, and Dunn has never been even remotely close to what Sosa did for those 5 years. Those are the kinda of ridiculous comparisons that have caused all the Dunn hate. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Indeed. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> All I'm trying to do is respond to the folks who think Dunn has no value. That's just insane. And I don't care if people "hate" Dunn or not. Hate away.
12-17-2008, 12:14 PM
<!--quoteo(post=5446:date=Dec 17 2008, 11:11 AM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Dec 17 2008, 11:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=5442:date=Dec 17 2008, 09:59 AM:name=Clapp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Clapp @ Dec 17 2008, 09:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=5440:date=Dec 17 2008, 09:58 AM:name=Fella)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Fella @ Dec 17 2008, 09:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=5437:date=Dec 17 2008, 08:55 AM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Dec 17 2008, 08:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=5432:date=Dec 17 2008, 09:49 AM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Dec 17 2008, 09:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=5430:date=Dec 17 2008, 09:47 AM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Dec 17 2008, 09:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Let me expand the Sosa/Dunn comparison a little...
These are their career 162 game averages: Dunn: 137 hits, 40 HR, 29 2B, 96 RBI, 114 BB, 180 K, 3 SF Sosa: 166 hits, 42 HR, 26 2B, 115 RBI, 64 BB, 159 K, 5 SF Pretty fucking close, really. Sosa averaged about 30 more hits per season, but Dunn averages about 50 more walks. Dunn hits more doubles, they hit about the same amount of homers, Sosa hit about 19 more RBI, and struck out about 21 fewer times. I'm not arguing that Dunn is as good of a player as Sosa was -- he isn't. But it isn't as far off as you might think...<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--> now compare them in their primes. sosa was pretty shitty his first few years. then he became exactly like dunn is now, but with speed and better fielding, then he became something that dunn will never be. compare them in their primes. it's way more far off than you may think. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah -- Dunn will never have a season like Sosa did in the late 90s/early 00s -- but that was a different era. If Dunn played during that same period (yeah -- he was a rookie in 2001), who knows? Anyway, I'm comparing Dunn to one of the most prolific offensive players to ever put on a uniform. And the fact that I can even make an argument should tell you something. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> But the only time Sosa was so prolific was between 1998 and 2002, and Dunn has never been even remotely close to what Sosa did for those 5 years. Those are the kinda of ridiculous comparisons that have caused all the Dunn hate. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Indeed. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> All I'm trying to do is respond to the folks who think Dunn has no value. That's just insane. And I don't care if people "hate" Dunn or not. Hate away. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Dunn has value without question for teams in need of power and guys that get on base, especially in the American League where you don't have to worry about his defense. We should be the last team interested in him with the way we're built. A couple years ago, that might not be the case.
@TheBlogfines
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