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Sipes, ruby, et al:
I know Dunn isn't a perfect player. Not by a longshot. He has a low batting average, passes up many RBI opportunities to get on base, and depending on the year, is either a below-average fielder (2008) or a hideous defensive catastrophe (2006).
But, as I see it, if we want a left-handed bat in RF, here are the options:
Milton Bradley
Bobby Abreu
Adam Dunn
All have their pluses and minuses. Bradley is by far the best fielder. Dunn is the youngest, and the only one still in his prime years. Abreu has the best reputation, for whatever that is worth.
Dunn has by far the most power. Dunn and Abreu are both remarkably consistent, although Abreu's numbers have all trended downward for several years, while Dunn's stay the exact same, year-in and year-out. Bradley's number's are wildly erratic, mostly because he's never played a full season. Ever.
In all honesty, who do you think would be the best option?
There's nothing better than to realize that the good things about youth don't end with youth itself. It's a matter of realizing that life can be renewed every day you get out of bed without baggage. It's tough to get there, but it's better than the dark thoughts. -Lance
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<!--quoteo(post=4620:date=Dec 14 2008, 12:49 AM:name=KBwsb)-->QUOTE (KBwsb @ Dec 14 2008, 12:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=4561:date=Dec 13 2008, 05:06 PM:name=Giff)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Giff @ Dec 13 2008, 05:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=4559:date=Dec 13 2008, 04:58 PM:name=KBwsb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KBwsb @ Dec 13 2008, 04:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=4531:date=Dec 13 2008, 02:24 PM:name=rok)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rok @ Dec 13 2008, 02:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Dunn is a bad baseball decision for any NL team unless he can learn to play 1B. Just sayin.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And by that line of reasoning, signing Manny Ramirez, even for one year, is a bad decision. Because he's a worse fielder than Dunn.
Oh...unless you consider<i> hitting</i> to be worth anything. Then both players are pretty good options.
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Sorry, but you just compared the greatest right handed hitter of our time to a guy that is a career .247 hitter. That doesn't work.
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I compared their <i>fielding</i>.
But I did enjoy your notion that a ballplayer's entire offensive value can be expressed through batting average.
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You implied that Manny's fielding lowered his value just as much as it does Dunn's. But you can handle a poor fielding guy if he's as great as Manny. However if a guy is going to have a .899 career OPS (since I know you think that's the most important stat), he needs to be a better fielder.
And I don't recall saying batting average expresses all value...I'm not dumb enough to think that batting average is the be all end all. I know that there isn't a single stat that says how good (or bad) a player is. In most cases, all the stats combined don't tell the whole story about players. That's what my eyes are for.
The thing you need to remember is that all Cardinals fans and all White Sox fans are very bad people. It's a fact that has been scientifically proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. Being a Cubs fan is the only path to rightousness and piousness. Cardinal and White Sox fans exist to be the dark, diabolical forces that oppose us. They are the yin to our yang, the Joker to our Batman, the demon to our angel, the insurgence to our freedom, the oil to our water, the club to our baby seal. Their happiness occurs only in direct conflict with everything that is pure and good in this world.
-Dirk
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KB, I love ya buddy. But comparing Dunn to Manny in any sort of way, should get ya shot.
@TheBlogfines
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<!--quoteo(post=4622:date=Dec 14 2008, 02:09 AM:name=KBwsb)-->QUOTE (KBwsb @ Dec 14 2008, 02:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Sipes, ruby, et al:
I know Dunn isn't a perfect player. Not by a longshot. He has a low batting average, passes up many RBI opportunities to get on base, and depending on the year, is either a below-average fielder (2008) or a hideous defensive catastrophe (2006).
But, as I see it, if we want a left-handed bat in RF, here are the options:
Milton Bradley
Bobby Abreu
Adam Dunn
All have their pluses and minuses. Bradley is by far the best fielder. Dunn is the youngest, and the only one still in his prime years. Abreu has the best reputation, for whatever that is worth.
Dunn has by far the most power. Dunn and Abreu are both remarkably consistent, although Abreu's numbers have all trended downward for several years, while Dunn's stay the exact same, year-in and year-out. Bradley's number's are wildly erratic, mostly because he's never played a full season. Ever.
In all honesty, who do you think would be the best option?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with what Kb is saying.
![[Image: lou.jpg]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v608/cubsbz/lou.jpg)
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Dunn's performance the last few years has been closer to Manny than Abreu has been to Dunn. Just sayin'.
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OPS over the past 3 seasons
Manny .990
Dunn .898
Abreu .847
OPS+ over the past 3 seasons
Manny 151
Dunn 126
Abreu 120
So even if you throw everything else out the window (like contact, defense, arm, speed, batting average) and only use Sabermetrics, the gap between Manny and Dunn is still much bigger than the one between Dunn and Abreu.
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<!--quoteo(post=4634:date=Dec 14 2008, 07:44 AM:name=Ace)-->QUOTE (Ace @ Dec 14 2008, 07:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Dunn's performance the last few years has been closer to Manny than Abreu has been to Dunn. Just sayin'.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This current response, to Ace's comment, is also an official threat upon his life.
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<!--quoteo(post=4636:date=Dec 14 2008, 08:54 AM:name=Fella)-->QUOTE (Fella @ Dec 14 2008, 08:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->OPS over the past 3 seasons
Manny .990
Dunn .898
Abreu .847
OPS+ over the past 3 seasons
Manny 151
Dunn 126
Abreu 120
So even if you throw everything else out the window (like contact, defense, arm, speed, batting average) and only use Sabermetrics, the gap between Manny and Dunn is still much bigger than the one between Dunn and Abreu.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In my face. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blush.gif[/img]
If I had said last "couple" years, I would have been closer.
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<!--quoteo(post=4559:date=Dec 13 2008, 05:58 PM:name=KBwsb)-->QUOTE (KBwsb @ Dec 13 2008, 05:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=4531:date=Dec 13 2008, 02:24 PM:name=rok)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rok @ Dec 13 2008, 02:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Dunn is a bad baseball decision for any NL team unless he can learn to play 1B. Just sayin.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And by that line of reasoning, signing Manny Ramirez, even for one year, is a bad decision. Because he's a worse fielder than Dunn.
Oh...unless you consider<i> hitting</i> to be worth anything. Then both players are pretty good options.
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This is why I don't think Dunn is a worthwhile option.
<b>Career batting average with runners in scoring position: .225</b>
Now, I know you're going to say, "but, his OBP in that situation is .416".
To that, I just want to argue that getting on base in a RISP situation is not exactly a good thing. For one thing, Dunn is supposed to be the type of player that drives those runners in. We could find plenty of other guys that occupy first base after we get a runner on 3rd, but I want a person that can drive the runner in. Maybe I'm being picky, but that's just what I want.
Also, Adam Dunn is a slow and less then adequate base runner. Do you think there's a reason he has a high OBP with runners in scoring position? I'll give you a clue, if you take away the IBB when he's in that situation his OBP drops from .416 to .354. While that's better then average, I wouldn't say it's impressive. This doesn't even include all the "unintentional" IBB. People WANT him on base in a RISP situation (unless of coarse it moves another person into scoring position). The guy is a walking double play on first base.
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Payton...if you don't post something soon, I'm calling the FBI.
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I'm sorry, but anyone who thinks that Dunn would be an adequate RF especially given the fact that we already have Alf in LF, just hasn't watched Dunn much during his career. He isn't by any means adequate and defense has to count for something. Bradley or Abreu, while themselves not perfect options, at least have played the position, and their offensive numbers would be more than acceptable.
Dunn's power is his best attribute, and we don't really need another all or nothing power hitter who is a poor fielder. The walks are nice, but he's simply a bad fit for this team in RF. I don't know what else I can say.
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<!--quoteo(post=4619:date=Dec 14 2008, 12:31 AM:name=ruby23)-->QUOTE (ruby23 @ Dec 14 2008, 12:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I am thoroughly convinced that the only baseball game KB watches in a calender year is the SOITOW game.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Terrfific point ruby. Spot on.
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<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->I'm sorry, but anyone who thinks that Dunn would be an adequate RF especially given the fact that we already have Alf in LF, just hasn't watched Dunn much during his career. He isn't by any means adequate and defense has to count for something. Bradley or Abreu, while themselves not perfect options, at least have played the position, and their offensive numbers would be more than acceptable.
Dunn's power is his best attribute, and we don't really need another all or nothing power hitter who is a poor fielder. The walks are nice, but he's simply a bad fit for this team in RF. I don't know what else I can say.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I loved Dave Kingman. He could hit the ball a mile. But he might as well have had a glove made of iron. He and Dunn are not the kind of players who win championships.
I'm 100% fine with this. I'm just glad there's an actual plan in place that isn't, "Let's load up on retreads and hope we get lucky." I'm a little tired of that plan.
Butcher
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Career On-base percentage:
Adam Dunn .381
Dave Kingman .302
Those 2 players are not in the same <i>universe</i>.
There's nothing better than to realize that the good things about youth don't end with youth itself. It's a matter of realizing that life can be renewed every day you get out of bed without baggage. It's tough to get there, but it's better than the dark thoughts. -Lance
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