Ibanez to Phillies

[Clapp]

<!--quoteo(post=4911:date=Dec 15 2008, 05:27 PM:name=HTC)-->QUOTE (HTC @ Dec 15 2008, 05:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->The band?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

[HTC]

[img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/funny.gif[/img]

[kbwsb]

<!--quoteo(post=4796:date=Dec 15 2008, 07:42 AM:name=veryzer)-->QUOTE (veryzer @ Dec 15 2008, 07:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->walks are not the most important stat. they're important, but a hit is better than a walk any day. i like hitters.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Dusty?

[kbwsb]

<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->...a hit is better than a walk any day. i like hitters.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Boy, not me. I <i>hate</i> hitters. Despise them. Give me a guy who'll sit there for 4 straight pitches with a bat glued to his shoulder any day, cause that's what baseball is all about.

Oh, wait a minute...I said a walk is better than an <i>out</i>, not better than a hit. Dunn makes fewer <i>outs</i> than almost any player on the Chicago Cubs baseball team. That's why I think he's pretty good. Whichever way he chooses to get on base is fine with me.

Did I mention he also hits a homer or two? Cause he does that pretty well too.
He actually takes the bat off his shoulder once in awhile and hits more home runs than any player on the Chicago Cubs baseball team.

Hmm..makes about the fewest outs...hits the most homers.
Yeah, that sounds pretty good to me.
(although I hear he has some faults, too)

[Lance]

<!--quoteo(post=4995:date=Dec 15 2008, 11:10 PM:name=KBwsb)-->QUOTE (KBwsb @ Dec 15 2008, 11:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <!--quotec-->...a hit is better than a walk any day. i like hitters.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Boy, not me. I <i>hate</i> hitters. Despise them. Give me a guy who'll sit there for 4 straight pitches with a bat glued to his shoulder any day, cause that's what baseball is all about.

Oh, wait a minute...I said a walk is better than an <i>out</i>, not better than a hit. Dunn makes fewer <i>outs</i> than almost any player on the Cubs baseball team. That's why I think he's pretty good. However he chooses to get on base is fine with me.

Did I mention he also hits a homer or two? It's true! He actually takes the bat off his shoulder once in awhile and hits more home runs than any player on the Cubs baseball team.

Hmm..makes about the fewest outs...hits the most homers.
Yeah, that sounds pretty good to me.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

So...you want Dunn. And you're not worried about a corner outfield of him and Soriano? Just curious.

[biggz]

<!--quoteo(post=4998:date=Dec 15 2008, 10:15 PM:name=Lance)-->QUOTE (Lance @ Dec 15 2008, 10:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=4995:date=Dec 15 2008, 11:10 PM:name=KBwsb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KBwsb @ Dec 15 2008, 11:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <!--quotec-->...a hit is better than a walk any day. i like hitters.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Boy, not me. I <i>hate</i> hitters. Despise them. Give me a guy who'll sit there for 4 straight pitches with a bat glued to his shoulder any day, cause that's what baseball is all about.

Oh, wait a minute...I said a walk is better than an <i>out</i>, not better than a hit. Dunn makes fewer <i>outs</i> than almost any player on the Cubs baseball team. That's why I think he's pretty good. However he chooses to get on base is fine with me.

Did I mention he also hits a homer or two? It's true! He actually takes the bat off his shoulder once in awhile and hits more home runs than any player on the Cubs baseball team.

Hmm..makes about the fewest outs...hits the most homers.
Yeah, that sounds pretty good to me.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

So...you want Dunn. And you're not worried about a corner outfield of him and Soriano? Just curious.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't mind Soriano and Dunn at the corners as long as we sign The Flash to play CF.

[kbwsb]

It'd certainly be an adventure with Alf and Dunn holding down the corners.
Good thing that corner OFers get the l<i>east</i> amount of defensive action of any position on a team. The difference between an average corner OF and a poor one is probably a run or two a month.

Frankly, I'd enjoy the hell out of it.

Would we be a better team with Bradley in RF, and in the batting order? Probably. If he suited up, yes.
Too bad Bradley's biggest weakness happens to be one of Dunn's biggest strengths...durability (or lack of it).

Still, I'd enjoy Bradley a lot too. A whole lot.

Is Abreu better than Dunn. No. Dunn's better.

But we're getting Bradley anyway, so let's cheer the man on!

[HTC]

Round and round we go.

[Scarey]

I'll bring the discussion over here. I've been tearing down the walls of the virtual reality that NSBB lives in KB, and while I don't think you're delusional like them, I wanted you to see the stats I brought up with them.

I have discussed average with RISP and they have made every attempt possible to try to prove to me that it's useless information. They preach about Dunn and how he has a high OPS, and I argued that OPS isn't always the trump card. If it was, you could stare me in the eye and tell me straight faced that Dunn had a better offensive season last year then Justin Morneau.

So, that's where I went with the argument. There was also a big discussion about RBI being useless for evaluation. They all agreed with me that Morneau had the better season then last year, but couldn't tell me exactly why. So I came up with this post.

<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->Every 2.3 times Morneau came to the plate with RISP (which he had 230 PAs with RISP), he was able to knock in a run.

Dunn, in comparison, was only able to score a runner in every 2.8 plate appearances with RISP (out of 182).
<b>
This is a big reason why I think Morneau had a better season then Dunn.</b>

So, RBI totals do not tell the whole story, I agree. Sometimes a player cannot help if his team gets into scoring position enough to help him to drive up RBI totals. However, when given a good opportunity to drive in a runner, Morneau was able to judge the situation and do what he had to do to get a runner in more often then Dunn. This takes the whole "RBIs is a team stat" argument and normalizes it to show what a specific player can do in the given situation.

Now, given the fact that Dunn's number was 2.8, I'm actually fairly impressed. It's still not on par with what most of the run producers are capable of (many that I've researched are at 2.5 plate appearances per RBI), but Dunn performed well above his career mark in this stat which is 3.4. Does that mean he's evolving his game? Maybe, and if that's the case I can be more receptive to the idea of bringing him in.

Just think a little bit more about these things guys. OBP and SLG don't tell the whole story about how effective a player is. Hell, OPS+ either for that matter. In fact, no stat can tell you the whole story. But, collecting a greater variety of data can help more to understand how a player performs.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I just wanted to toot my own horn and offer up a different perspective then the same old "OBP vs. Avg." argument.

[ruby23]

KB, I promise never to insinuate you've never actually watched a baseball game if you promise to never make another post about Adam Dunn again.

[kbwsb]

<!--quoteo(post=5010:date=Dec 15 2008, 10:56 PM:name=ruby23)-->QUOTE (ruby23 @ Dec 15 2008, 10:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->KB, I promise never to insinuate you've never actually watched a baseball game if you promise to never make another post about Adam Dunn again.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Rube, <i>someone</i> has to defend the guy. He's a pretty good ballplayer, according to many.

However, if <i>you</i> were the only guy on the site allowed to talk about Dunn, everyone would be convinced that he spends his entire existence striking out with the bases loaded, fielding fly balls off his cranium, and weakly grounding into triple plays.

Taint so.

[kbwsb]

[img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif[/img]

[ruby23]

<!--quoteo(post=5011:date=Dec 15 2008, 11:02 PM:name=KBwsb)-->QUOTE (KBwsb @ Dec 15 2008, 11:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=5010:date=Dec 15 2008, 10:56 PM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Dec 15 2008, 10:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->KB, I promise never to insinuate you've never actually watched a baseball game if you promise to never make another post about Adam Dunn again.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Rube, <i>someone</i> has to defend the guy. He's a pretty good ballplayer, according to many.

However, if <i>you</i> were the only guy on the site allowed to talk about Dunn, everyone would be convinced that he spends his entire existence striking out with the bases loaded, fielding fly balls off his cranium, and weakly grounding into triple plays.

Taint so.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Compared to the average human, Dunn is a pretty good player. Compared to the average corner OF, he's average . . . but he's also completely unclutch, unenthusiatic, and a proven loser.

[Rappster]

<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->but he' also completely unclutch, unenthusiatic, and a proven loser.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Ruby has just described 90% of the women he's ever dated

[Coldneck]

I've been teetering on the edge of KB's side of the argument about Dunn for a couple of years. I just don't have the energy (or care) to defend Dunn like KB has. Right or wrong, sabermatricians think RBI, AVG, BARISP are very overrated stats. There are studies that support the idea that there is no such thing as a clutch hitter. They think that getting on base and hitting with thump are the single most important traits a ball player can have. Wins and losses seem to support that theory.

Adam Dunn is a sabermatrician's wet dream. He does all the things they deem to be important. I really do think he would be a fantastic Cub if used correctly (bats near the top, not in the middle of the order). .

Living in Louisville I get to see a lot of the Reds. Dunn is absolutely painful to watch when his at-bat matters. He is routinely shut down by good pitching. He often looks clueless, the same way Soriano does. I can not fathom seeing another Soriano type player on the team. Dunn routinely leads the NL in strikeouts and the Reds fans always expected the worst when he came up in a clutch situation. For my own sanity I hope he never becomes a Cub.