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kbwsb · 01-28-2009, 06:00 PM

QUOTE (ruby23 @ Jan 28 2009, 03:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Someone take KB's keyboard away.
I didn't write that Dunn article. I just quoted it. ( which BTW, has been quoted by Olney, Neyer, and a number of other baseball folk.)
Tough to argue with the numbers.

savant · 01-28-2009, 06:03 PM

QUOTE (KBwsb @ Jan 28 2009, 04:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Jan 28 2009, 03:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Someone take KB's keyboard away.
I didn't write that Dunn article. I just quoted it. ( which BTW, has been quoted by Olney, Neyer, and a number of other baseball folk.)
Tough to argue with the numbers.
</div>
Find someone to take on Soriano's contract, and I am onboard with signing Dunn.

ruby23 · 01-28-2009, 06:11 PM

QUOTE (KBwsb @ Jan 28 2009, 04:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Jan 28 2009, 03:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Someone take KB's keyboard away.
I didn't write that Dunn article. I just quoted it. ( which BTW, has been quoted by Olney, Neyer, and a number of other baseball folk.)
Tough to argue with the numbers.
</div>
It's not tough to argue with numbers, turn on a game once in awhile.

Giff · 01-28-2009, 06:12 PM

QUOTE (KBwsb @ Jan 28 2009, 03:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ace @ Jan 28 2009, 03:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>IMO, Soriano's arm is great in left BECAUSE he makes generally shorter throws than he would in RF.
No. He has a great arm. As savant or BT said, that doesn't make up for his other fielding problems, but if a guy has ONE outstanding defensive characteristic, it seems to make sense to put him in a position where he can make the most use of it.
</div>
[img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/ruby.gif[/img]
Ace hit it on the head, and it can't be said enough. While Soriano has a strong arm, it isn't a Jose Guillen- or Vladimir Guerrero-like cannon. The reason he throws so many guys out is because of his deadly accuracy...from LF he hits the catcher perfectly on one bounce every time. However, being a former infielder, he throws almost sidearmed, which is very poor form for an outfielder. This leads for his throws to tail a huge amount. He has it down to an art from LF because it fits his natural motion, however when forced to throw longer distances the ball will tail more (and be more inconsistent), leading to a decline in accuracy. We saw this in the little time he was in CF, his arm was much less effective, and I'm positive he would have the same problem if he moved into RF.

ruby23 · 01-28-2009, 06:15 PM

Also, I didn't tell you to put away your keyboard because of the Dunn article. It was in reference to bringing up Dunn at all, he has no relevence to anything being discussed here, nothing. He never was an option and never will be an option. He's a calculatorhead's dream and a manager's nightmare.

Ace · 01-28-2009, 06:20 PM

QUOTE (Giff @ Jan 28 2009, 05:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KBwsb @ Jan 28 2009, 03:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ace @ Jan 28 2009, 03:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>IMO, Soriano's arm is great in left BECAUSE he makes generally shorter throws than he would in RF.
No. He has a great arm. As savant or BT said, that doesn't make up for his other fielding problems, but if a guy has ONE outstanding defensive characteristic, it seems to make sense to put him in a position where he can make the most use of it.
</div>
[img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/ruby.gif[/img]
Ace hit it on the head, and it can't be said enough. While Soriano has a strong arm, it isn't a Jose Guillen- or Vladimir Guerrero-like cannon. The reason he throws so many guys out is because of his deadly accuracy...from LF he hits the catcher perfectly on one bounce every time. However, being a former infielder, he throws almost sidearmed, which is very poor form for an outfielder. This leads for his throws to tail a huge amount. He has it down to an art from LF because it fits his natural motion, however when forced to throw longer distances the ball will tail more (and be more inconsistent), leading to a decline in accuracy. We saw this in the little time he was in CF, his arm was much less effective, and I'm positive he would have the same problem if he moved into RF.
</div>
Thanks Giff. Couldn't have said it better myself.

savant · 01-28-2009, 06:23 PM

QUOTE (Giff @ Jan 28 2009, 04:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KBwsb @ Jan 28 2009, 03:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ace @ Jan 28 2009, 03:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>IMO, Soriano's arm is great in left BECAUSE he makes generally shorter throws than he would in RF.
No. He has a great arm. As savant or BT said, that doesn't make up for his other fielding problems, but if a guy has ONE outstanding defensive characteristic, it seems to make sense to put him in a position where he can make the most use of it.
</div>
[img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/ruby.gif[/img]
Ace hit it on the head, and it can't be said enough. While Soriano has a strong arm, it isn't a Jose Guillen- or Vladimir Guerrero-like cannon. The reason he throws so many guys out is because of his deadly accuracy...from LF he hits the catcher perfectly on one bounce every time. However, being a former infielder, he throws almost sidearmed, which is very poor form for an outfielder. This leads for his throws to tail a huge amount. He has it down to an art from LF because it fits his natural motion, however when forced to throw longer distances the ball will tail more (and be more inconsistent), leading to a decline in accuracy. We saw this in the little time he was in CF, his arm was much less effective, and I'm positive he would have the same problem if he moved into RF.
</div>
Giff everyone's arm is less effective in center than the corners. Another thing that Soriano does extremely well is charge the ball hard and get rid of it fast. I think you aren't giving Soriano credit for how much arm he shows without using the big crow hop. The only throw that is significantly farther from right than left is the throw to third base. And, with the accuracy that Soriano has shown from left I am pretty sure that he can figure out what he needs to aim at to get the ball to the plate from right. That being said, Soriano can't play right because he suck as an outfielder.

Clapp · 01-28-2009, 06:27 PM

QUOTE (Giff @ Jan 28 2009, 03:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KBwsb @ Jan 28 2009, 03:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ace @ Jan 28 2009, 03:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>IMO, Soriano's arm is great in left BECAUSE he makes generally shorter throws than he would in RF.
No. He has a great arm. As savant or BT said, that doesn't make up for his other fielding problems, but if a guy has ONE outstanding defensive characteristic, it seems to make sense to put him in a position where he can make the most use of it.
</div>
[img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/ruby.gif[/img]
Ace hit it on the head, and it can't be said enough. While Soriano has a strong arm, it isn't a Jose Guillen- or Vladimir Guerrero-like cannon. The reason he throws so many guys out is because of his deadly accuracy...from LF he hits the catcher perfectly on one bounce every time. However, being a former infielder, he throws almost sidearmed, which is very poor form for an outfielder. This leads for his throws to tail a huge amount. He has it down to an art from LF because it fits his natural motion, however when forced to throw longer distances the ball will tail more (and be more inconsistent), leading to a decline in accuracy. We saw this in the little time he was in CF, his arm was much less effective, and I'm positive he would have the same problem if he moved into RF.
</div>
Exactly and I brought this up like a month ago. I can't see his throwing working in RF. Plus, the last thing I want to do is move this guy around again. It seems to bother him. Let's just let him be. Keep him in the leadoff spot, keep him in left field.

kbwsb · 01-28-2009, 07:04 PM

QUOTE (Clapp @ Jan 28 2009, 04:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Giff @ Jan 28 2009, 03:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KBwsb @ Jan 28 2009, 03:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ace @ Jan 28 2009, 03:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>IMO, Soriano's arm is great in left BECAUSE he makes generally shorter throws than he would in RF.
No. He has a great arm. As savant or BT said, that doesn't make up for his other fielding problems, but if a guy has ONE outstanding defensive characteristic, it seems to make sense to put him in a position where he can make the most use of it.
</div>
[img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/ruby.gif[/img]
Ace hit it on the head, and it can't be said enough. While Soriano has a strong arm, it isn't a Jose Guillen- or Vladimir Guerrero-like cannon. The reason he throws so many guys out is because of his deadly accuracy...from LF he hits the catcher perfectly on one bounce every time. However, being a former infielder, he throws almost sidearmed, which is very poor form for an outfielder. This leads for his throws to tail a huge amount. He has it down to an art from LF because it fits his natural motion, however when forced to throw longer distances the ball will tail more (and be more inconsistent), leading to a decline in accuracy. We saw this in the little time he was in CF, his arm was much less effective, and I'm positive he would have the same problem if he moved into RF.
</div>
Exactly and I brought this up like a month ago. I can't see his throwing working in RF. Plus, the last thing I want to do is move this guy around again. It seems to bother him. Let's just let him be. <b>Keep him in the leadoff spot</b>, keep him in left field.
</div>
wtf?
even alf has conceded that it ain't hap'nin.

Clapp · 01-28-2009, 07:05 PM

QUOTE (KBwsb @ Jan 28 2009, 04:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Clapp @ Jan 28 2009, 04:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Giff @ Jan 28 2009, 03:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KBwsb @ Jan 28 2009, 03:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ace @ Jan 28 2009, 03:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>IMO, Soriano's arm is great in left BECAUSE he makes generally shorter throws than he would in RF.
No. He has a great arm. As savant or BT said, that doesn't make up for his other fielding problems, but if a guy has ONE outstanding defensive characteristic, it seems to make sense to put him in a position where he can make the most use of it.
</div>
[img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/ruby.gif[/img]
Ace hit it on the head, and it can't be said enough. While Soriano has a strong arm, it isn't a Jose Guillen- or Vladimir Guerrero-like cannon. The reason he throws so many guys out is because of his deadly accuracy...from LF he hits the catcher perfectly on one bounce every time. However, being a former infielder, he throws almost sidearmed, which is very poor form for an outfielder. This leads for his throws to tail a huge amount. He has it down to an art from LF because it fits his natural motion, however when forced to throw longer distances the ball will tail more (and be more inconsistent), leading to a decline in accuracy. We saw this in the little time he was in CF, his arm was much less effective, and I'm positive he would have the same problem if he moved into RF.
</div>
Exactly and I brought this up like a month ago. I can't see his throwing working in RF. Plus, the last thing I want to do is move this guy around again. It seems to bother him. Let's just let him be. <b>Keep him in the leadoff spot</b>, keep him in left field.
</div>
wtf?
even alf has conceded that it ain't hap'nin.
</div>
Huh? No he didn't.

kbwsb · 01-28-2009, 07:09 PM

QUOTE <b>Chicago Cubs' Alfonso Soriano OK with not being leading man</b>

By Dave van Dyck | Tribune reporter
9:14 PM CST, January 27, 2009
Just into the third year of an eight-year, $136 million contract, it is becoming clear Alfonso Soriano has no leg to stand on—so to speak—in insisting he bat leadoff.

It is even becoming clear to him, given his age, injuries and diminishing speed. Soriano says he will go to spring training in three weeks with a fresh attitude, maybe even a new commitment.

"I feel comfortable batting leadoff and any [place] in the lineup," he said recently at the Cubs Convention. "It's not about me, it's about the team and what [manager Lou Piniella] wants to do this year because, I'm 33 now and they think I can't run anymore."

He has stolen only 19 bases in each of the last two seasons compared to 30 or more in five of the previous six years.
"My [injury] problem in April is because of cold weather," Soriano said. "I want to work on my legs and see what happens. I want to work hard and play 162 games this year."

Because of multiple leg strains, including one from his trademark hop while catching fly balls, Soriano has been limited to his two lowest game totals while playing for the Cubs, including just 109 last year.

But even if he's healthy, how many bases can he steal? Maybe 41 again like he did the season before he signed with the Cubs?

"Oh, man, it's a little different now," he said. "[Pitchers] have slide steps. I don't know how many, but my legs feel good. I want to be the same guy I used to be three or four years ago."

That would be setting a very high standard—higher, obviously, than in his two Cubs seasons.

In 2006 with Washington, Soriano stole 41 bases, scored 119 runs and hit 46 homers and 41 doubles, making him one of the game's top leadoff hitters and, in some respects, the best.But maybe what the Cubs have seen —an average of 19 stolen bases, 87 runs and 31 homers—is what they will get for $16 million this year and $18 million through 2014.

Part of the problem in moving Soriano is that there is no logical replacement, although Ryan Theriot is the fastest regular.<b> Newcomer Aaron Miles, who has stolen only eight total bases the last three seasons,</b> (fuck yeah, Jim!) would seem better suited batting second or eighth.

As for Piniella, he continues to avoid the question of who will bat leadoff, having tried last spring to move Soriano without success.

"He's a player, he wants to win," Piniella said at the Cubs Convention. "He has all the money in the world. What's important to him, basically, is to win.

"We'll talk to him in the spring and see where it goes. We'll put the best combinations out there and the best lineup we can."

Where to bat Soriano is the most important question of the spring for Piniella—and the one Cubs fans talk about most.

"At this point I don't care," Soriano said. "If the manager wants to move me from leadoff spot, that's fine. I'm tired because every year [critics] start again with the leadoff thing. I don't care, you know?"


Last spring Soriano said the same thing, although not as emphatically. When Piniella did move him during several games, Soriano appeared to sulk. (who GIVES a fuck? Man up and play ball, you pussy!)

"If I don't bat leadoff, I think I can have more RBIs, so I want to be the same guy and … I will do whatever I can do," he said this year. "But [if not leadoff] I want to stay in one spot and not jump around."

Baron · 01-28-2009, 07:17 PM

In that article he said he would be okay with not leading off... where do you get that it "ain't hap'nin"?

kbwsb · 01-28-2009, 07:19 PM

QUOTE (Baron @ Jan 28 2009, 05:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>In that article he said he would be okay with not leading off... where do you get that it "ain't hap'nin"?
I'm just assuming that Lou is not a total and compete spineless pussy.
I could be wrong.

Baron · 01-28-2009, 07:20 PM

QUOTE (KBwsb @ Jan 28 2009, 05:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Baron @ Jan 28 2009, 05:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>In that article he said he would be okay with not leading off... where do you get that it "ain't hap'nin"?
I'm just assuming that Lou is not a total and compete spineless pussy.
I could be wrong.
</div>
Wow.

kbwsb · 01-28-2009, 07:22 PM

This was from Olney's ESPN thing today:

QUOTE The perfect spot for Soriano in a National League lineup probably is sixth; this past season, among leadoff hitters he was 17th in on-base percentage.

I wonder whether, as Lou Piniella considers his options, he might be inclined to think about Derrek Lee in the No. 2 spot in his lineup; this way, he can alternate left-handed and right-handed hitters in the first six spots in his batting order (or something along these lines) in games against right-handed pitchers.

2B Mike Fontenot, L (he had a .393 OBP against right-handers in 2008)
1B Lee, R
RF Milton Bradley, S
3B Aramis Ramirez, R
CF Kosuke Fukudome, L
LF Soriano, R
C Geovany Soto, R
SS Ryan Theriot, R
A potential problem with that arrangement, besides the issue of having Fukudome hitting in a major RBI spot, is that Soriano inevitably would see a lot of right-handed relievers after his first two at-bats. Another possibility:
SS Theriot
LF Soriano
RF Bradley
3B Ramirez
1B Lee
CF Fukudome
C Soto
2B Fontenot

For the readers: How would you construct the Cubs' lineup?

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