6 games left and the impact of Ramirez's injury

[Fly]

<!--quoteo(post=64838:date=Sep 30 2009, 05:30 PM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Sep 30 2009, 05:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Z isn't an "ace," but he's the closest thing we've got.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Correct. If we're using the term "ace" to denote the head of the staff and not a type of pitcher, then Zambrano is certainly our ace.

[PcB]

<!--quoteo(post=64838:date=Sep 30 2009, 04:30 PM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Sep 30 2009, 04:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Z isn't an "ace," but he's the closest thing we've got.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Other than Ted Lilly, yes.

[veryzer]

off the topic, but i was looking at the great david wright's stats, and ramirez had as good a year, if not better, in almost half the playing time. weird.

[kbwsb]

Ted Lilly has been here 3 years. In those 3 years, he's pitched better than Zambrano. In '07 and '08, their stats were nearly identical. In '09, Lilly has pitched quite a bit better.

He may not <i>seem</i> like an ace, but he's our best pitcher.

[veryzer]

<!--quoteo(post=64848:date=Sep 30 2009, 04:58 PM:name=KBwsb)-->QUOTE (KBwsb @ Sep 30 2009, 04:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Ted Lilly has been here 3 years. In those 3 years, he's pitched better than Zambrano. In '07 and '08, their stats were nearly identical. In '09, Lilly has pitched quite a bit better.

He may not <i>seem</i> like an ace, but he's our best pitcher.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


yep. hendry signed lilly. remember that? i don't think he was at the top of any of our lists.

[kbwsb]

<!--quoteo(post=64849:date=Sep 30 2009, 05:03 PM:name=veryzer)-->QUOTE (veryzer @ Sep 30 2009, 05:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=64848:date=Sep 30 2009, 04:58 PM:name=KBwsb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KBwsb @ Sep 30 2009, 04:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Ted Lilly has been here 3 years. In those 3 years, he's pitched better than Zambrano. In '07 and '08, their stats were nearly identical. In '09, Lilly has pitched quite a bit better.

He may not <i>seem</i> like an ace, but he's our best pitcher.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yep. hendry signed lilly. remember that? i don't think he was at the top of any of our lists.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
On while in the ER! Kick-ass signing, and one I was always in favor of. (I've long thought we should have more lefties in our rotation. Remember, there were <i>lots</i> of years when all 5 SP's were right-handed).
And Lilly was more attractive than the other big lefty in the FA pool that year, Barry Zito. I liked Zito, but figured it's take $60-65 mil to sign Zito. The Giants paid <i>double</i> that.
Sabean was a complete dumbshit.
Jim kicked ass on the Ted Lilly signing.

[Scarey]

<!--quoteo(post=64837:date=Sep 30 2009, 04:29 PM:name=PcB)-->QUOTE (PcB @ Sep 30 2009, 04:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=64833:date=Sep 30 2009, 04:07 PM:name=Scarey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Scarey @ Sep 30 2009, 04:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=64820:date=Sep 30 2009, 02:38 PM:name=PcB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PcB @ Sep 30 2009, 02:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Don't tell Scarey Z's not an Ace...<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


Carlos Zambrano's 162 game averages:
IP: 212
ERA: 3.50
SO: 181
ERA+: 127

Roy Halladay's 162 game averages:
IP: 232
ERA: 3.45
SO: 169
ERA+: 133

The only thing that Halladay is decisively better than Zambrano in is innings pitched, and there's nobody besides Halladay in this era that can throw 230 innings every single year.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
BTW

Halladay's 162 game averages:
BB/9 - 2.0
BB - 52

Zambrano's 162 game averages:
BB/9 - 4
BB - 95


I might be the only one but I find those stats important.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


Zambrano's career hits/9: 7.6
Halladay's career hits/9: 8.8

So, Halladay allows one less base runner than Zambrano does per 9 innings. It's not insignificant, but I still think that puts Zambrano in the same category as Halladay. Halladay is easily the better pitcher, but he doesn't blow Zambrano away.

[Scarey]

<!--quoteo(post=64839:date=Sep 30 2009, 04:31 PM:name=FlyAtTheThigh)-->QUOTE (FlyAtTheThigh @ Sep 30 2009, 04:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=64833:date=Sep 30 2009, 05:07 PM:name=Scarey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Scarey @ Sep 30 2009, 05:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=64820:date=Sep 30 2009, 02:38 PM:name=PcB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PcB @ Sep 30 2009, 02:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Don't tell Scarey Z's not an Ace...<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


Carlos Zambrano's 162 game averages:
IP: 212
ERA: 3.50
SO: 181
ERA+: 127

Roy Halladay's 162 game averages:
IP: 232
ERA: 3.45
SO: 169
ERA+: 133

The only thing that Halladay is decisively better than Zambrano in is innings pitched, and there's nobody besides Halladay in this era that can throw 230 innings every single year.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Those are nice, but Z hasn't had numbers as good as his averages over the last 3 years. I wasn't contending in my text to PCB that he wasn't an ace in the past, just that he no longer is one, to me, now.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

That's a valid point. But what makes you think Zambrano isn't capable of his career averages anymore?

[Fly]

<!--quoteo(post=64861:date=Sep 30 2009, 07:20 PM:name=Scarey)-->QUOTE (Scarey @ Sep 30 2009, 07:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=64837:date=Sep 30 2009, 04:29 PM:name=PcB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PcB @ Sep 30 2009, 04:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=64833:date=Sep 30 2009, 04:07 PM:name=Scarey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Scarey @ Sep 30 2009, 04:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=64820:date=Sep 30 2009, 02:38 PM:name=PcB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PcB @ Sep 30 2009, 02:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Don't tell Scarey Z's not an Ace...<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


Carlos Zambrano's 162 game averages:
IP: 212
ERA: 3.50
SO: 181
ERA+: 127

Roy Halladay's 162 game averages:
IP: 232
ERA: 3.45
SO: 169
ERA+: 133

The only thing that Halladay is decisively better than Zambrano in is innings pitched, and there's nobody besides Halladay in this era that can throw 230 innings every single year.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
BTW

Halladay's 162 game averages:
BB/9 - 2.0
BB - 52

Zambrano's 162 game averages:
BB/9 - 4
BB - 95


I might be the only one but I find those stats important.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


Zambrano's career hits/9: 7.6
Halladay's career hits/9: 8.8

So, Halladay allows one less base runner than Zambrano does per 9 innings. It's not insignificant, but I still think that puts Zambrano in the same category as Halladay. Halladay is easily the better pitcher, but he doesn't blow Zambrano away.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Halladay also plays in the AL...the AL east. And Zambrano plays in the notably weak NL Central. It's not close.

[Fly]

<!--quoteo(post=64862:date=Sep 30 2009, 07:22 PM:name=Scarey)-->QUOTE (Scarey @ Sep 30 2009, 07:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=64839:date=Sep 30 2009, 04:31 PM:name=FlyAtTheThigh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FlyAtTheThigh @ Sep 30 2009, 04:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=64833:date=Sep 30 2009, 05:07 PM:name=Scarey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Scarey @ Sep 30 2009, 05:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=64820:date=Sep 30 2009, 02:38 PM:name=PcB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PcB @ Sep 30 2009, 02:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Don't tell Scarey Z's not an Ace...<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


Carlos Zambrano's 162 game averages:
IP: 212
ERA: 3.50
SO: 181
ERA+: 127

Roy Halladay's 162 game averages:
IP: 232
ERA: 3.45
SO: 169
ERA+: 133

The only thing that Halladay is decisively better than Zambrano in is innings pitched, and there's nobody besides Halladay in this era that can throw 230 innings every single year.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Those are nice, but Z hasn't had numbers as good as his averages over the last 3 years. I wasn't contending in my text to PCB that he wasn't an ace in the past, just that he no longer is one, to me, now.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

That's a valid point. But what makes you think Zambrano isn't capable of his career averages anymore?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I'm just going by recent history. And the high workload Zambrano experienced as a youngster. He could have a Roger Clemens like career...but to post his career numbers, which he hasn't performed at for the last 3 years, and measure them against Halladay in an attempt to validate Z doesn't make sense. And, like I just posted, it's a faulty comparison considering their leagues/divisions.

[ruby23]

<!--quoteo(post=64849:date=Sep 30 2009, 05:03 PM:name=veryzer)-->QUOTE (veryzer @ Sep 30 2009, 05:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=64848:date=Sep 30 2009, 04:58 PM:name=KBwsb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KBwsb @ Sep 30 2009, 04:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Ted Lilly has been here 3 years. In those 3 years, he's pitched better than Zambrano. In '07 and '08, their stats were nearly identical. In '09, Lilly has pitched quite a bit better.

He may not <i>seem</i> like an ace, but he's our best pitcher.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


yep. hendry signed lilly. remember that? i don't think he was at the top of any of our lists.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lilly was definitely on the top of my list . . . I wanted him and Gil Meche.

[MW4]

<!--quoteo(post=64824:date=Sep 30 2009, 01:00 PM:name=KBwsb)-->QUOTE (KBwsb @ Sep 30 2009, 01:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Well then, offer Soto a <i>bonus</i>.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

That's the BINGO...
I hope someone in the front office comes up with that one.

[Coach]

This thread did alot of good.