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<!--quoteo(post=64806:date=Sep 30 2009, 01:51 PM:name=jeffy)-->QUOTE (jeffy @ Sep 30 2009, 01:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=64789:date=Sep 30 2009, 12:47 PM:name=MW4)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MW4 @ Sep 30 2009, 12:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Harden on a whole for a 2-3-4 starter, did what he was supposed to do.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->I'm pretty sure when we got him last year we were expecting him to be more than that though. That's what I mean when I say he's been a let down. Yeah, he's done alright, but he really didn't live up to the expectations. His pitched some good games this year, but there have been plenty of others where he couldn't find the strike zone, his changeup sucked, etc.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've been a <!--coloro:#0000FF--> <!--/coloro-->Harden<!--colorc-->
<!--/colorc--> supporter, but I'm starting to wonder if it's worth signing him again. His entire career has been a succession of letdowns. As many here will no doubt agree with, there's a big difference between having great talent, and playing winning baseball (and being a valuable member of the ballclub). And I guess, in a totally different way, this also describes Bradley.
Great talent, even supremely great talent (and Harden has it) isn't enough.
BTW, Rube, I hope you're wrong about <!--coloro:#4B0082--> <!--/coloro-->Soto<!--colorc-->
<!--/colorc-->. But I have a sneaking suspicion you may not be.
Like I said in another post, if his contract this winter does not include an iron-clad "weight clause," then someone in the front office has dropped the ball.
There's nothing better than to realize that the good things about youth don't end with youth itself. It's a matter of realizing that life can be renewed every day you get out of bed without baggage. It's tough to get there, but it's better than the dark thoughts. -Lance
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<!--quoteo(post=64791:date=Sep 30 2009, 12:53 PM:name=Andy)-->QUOTE (Andy @ Sep 30 2009, 12:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I'd put Z in the "in between" category. He had a rough April and August, but was pretty good outside those 2 months. A bit up and down and not really "Ace" material, but he certainly didn't hurt the team.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't tell Scarey Z's not an Ace...
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<!--quoteo(post=64810:date=Sep 30 2009, 01:15 PM:name=KBwsb)-->QUOTE (KBwsb @ Sep 30 2009, 01:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=64806:date=Sep 30 2009, 01:51 PM:name=jeffy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jeffy @ Sep 30 2009, 01:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=64789:date=Sep 30 2009, 12:47 PM:name=MW4)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MW4 @ Sep 30 2009, 12:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Harden on a whole for a 2-3-4 starter, did what he was supposed to do.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->I'm pretty sure when we got him last year we were expecting him to be more than that though. That's what I mean when I say he's been a let down. Yeah, he's done alright, but he really didn't live up to the expectations. His pitched some good games this year, but there have been plenty of others where he couldn't find the strike zone, his changeup sucked, etc.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've been a <!--coloro:#0000FF--> <!--/coloro-->Harden<!--colorc-->
<!--/colorc--> supporter, but I'm starting to wonder if it's worth signing him again. His entire career has been a succession of letdowns. As many here will no doubt agree with, there's a big difference between having great talent, and playing winning baseball (and being a valuable member of the ballclub). And I guess, in a totally different way, this also describes Bradley.
Great talent, even supremely great talent (and Harden has it) isn't enough.
BTW, Rube, I hope you're wrong about <!--coloro:#4B0082--> <!--/coloro-->Soto<!--colorc-->
<!--/colorc-->. But I have a sneaking suspicion you may not be.
Like I said in another post, if his contract this winter does not include an iron-clad "weight clause," then someone in the front office has dropped the ball.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He doesn't really have a contract though, just the standard auto-renew one for pre-arbitration guys, I'm not sure how a weight clause would protect us, if he is out of shape send him to the minors and pay him 50K a year.
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Well then, offer Soto a <i>bonus</i>. I'm not sure of his exact weight, but it seems pretty obvious that something like this has happened: he's kind of a slacker and a stoner, and in his early 20's, he always played at 220 lbs.
And he always seemed like a mediocre prospect.
Then, one winter, he shapes up, shows up in 2007 at 195, and KILLS AAA pitching, and even hits well against MLB pitching in his call-up.
He stays at 195 in '08, and kicks ass, winning the ROTY.
However, for '09, it's back to the bong and the french fries, his weight balloons, and...shocker...in '09 he sucks balls.
I don't care if we have to hire a full-time nutritionist to shadow his every move next year (what would that cost? 50 grand? 75 grand?), it seems that it'd be worth it to an organization with a $140 million dollar payroll to make damn sure that Soto shows up in good shape.
There's nothing better than to realize that the good things about youth don't end with youth itself. It's a matter of realizing that life can be renewed every day you get out of bed without baggage. It's tough to get there, but it's better than the dark thoughts. -Lance
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http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CH...le-scores.shtml
I can't get the formatting to work so just click on the link above. Our away record stunk, and we had losing records in April, June and August. Maybe we can try and dissect the away record and why we happened to lose in those months to give us more insight. Obviously you can't win them all but some of these records stand out a bit here: 0-3 vs Detroit, 2-4 vs Colorado, 6-10 vs St. Louis, 1-5 vs Philly and 3-5 vs LAD. If we go 20-19 instead of 12-27 against these teams our record right now would 90-66, and we'd be a half game back of first in the division.
If Angelo had picked McClellin, I would have been expecting to hear by training camp that kid has stage 4 cancer, is actually 5'2" 142 lbs, is a chick who played in a 7 - 0 defensive scheme who only rotated in on downs which were 3 and 34 yds + so is not expecting to play a down in the NFL until the sex change is complete and she puts on another 100 lbs. + but this is Emery's first pick so he'll get a pass with a bit of questioning. - 1060Ivy
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Bz, I'm sure you noticed that all those teams you mentioned are <i>playoff</i> teams.
It's tough to go .500 against those teams, and this '09 Cub squad seems particularly bad against good pitching.
There's nothing better than to realize that the good things about youth don't end with youth itself. It's a matter of realizing that life can be renewed every day you get out of bed without baggage. It's tough to get there, but it's better than the dark thoughts. -Lance
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<!--quoteo(post=64826:date=Sep 30 2009, 03:18 PM:name=bz)-->QUOTE (bz @ Sep 30 2009, 03:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--> http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CH...le-scores.shtml
I can't get the formatting to work so just click on the link above. Our away record stunk, and we had losing records in April, June and August. Maybe we can try and dissect the away record and why we happened to lose in those months to give us more insight. Obviously you can't win them all but some of these records stand out a bit here: 0-3 vs Detroit, 2-4 vs Colorado, 6-10 vs St. Louis, 1-5 vs Philly and 3-5 vs LAD. If we go 20-19 instead of 12-27 against these teams our record right now would 90-66, and we'd be a half game back of first in the division.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Remember that it's not only which team that the Cubs were playing but also who was healthy/available for the Cubs when they played and who they played against at the time. e.g. The May series in St Louis had the Cubs score a total of 2 runs in 3 games, the result was a sweep by the Cards. The Cubs were without Aramis and as I recall a few players playing injured. If you compare that series to the September series, you find that the Cubs still didn't have much offense but the Cardinals had Holliday, Lugo and DeRosa provide the offense for the Cards.
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<!--quoteo(post=64827:date=Sep 30 2009, 03:26 PM:name=KBwsb)-->QUOTE (KBwsb @ Sep 30 2009, 03:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Bz, I'm sure you noticed that all those teams you mentioned are <i>playoff</i> teams.
It's tough to go .500 against those teams, and this '09 Cub squad seems particularly bad against good pitching.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That was kind of my point. If we can't achieve a split on the road and against the playoff bound teams we really shouldn't be looking at the playoffs, but from the position we are now.
1060, that's what I was interested in finding out, thanks. If just a few things went the other way in just a couple of these series there could have been a completely different outcome.
If Angelo had picked McClellin, I would have been expecting to hear by training camp that kid has stage 4 cancer, is actually 5'2" 142 lbs, is a chick who played in a 7 - 0 defensive scheme who only rotated in on downs which were 3 and 34 yds + so is not expecting to play a down in the NFL until the sex change is complete and she puts on another 100 lbs. + but this is Emery's first pick so he'll get a pass with a bit of questioning. - 1060Ivy
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There are some pretty strong rumors that Ricketts is interested in rolling out the '09 team again in '10 (along with keeping Lou and Jim).
I wonder what you guys think?
Obviously, bz and others are correct; we were not <i>that</i> bad, and with a couple lucky breaks, we could have easily made some Wild Card noise.
OTOH, can anyone envision Alf getting better? Lee was awesome, but he's old, and MLB is not kind to aging gents. The Theriot/Font middle infield has worn out my patience; it was cool for LSU a decade ago, but it just ain't cutting the mustard these days. Fuk is defensively challenged in CF, offensively challenged in RF, and is signed for 2 more years at huge dollars.
I definitely don't want to blow the team up. But a decent overhaul would make me happy.
Side note: trading Z would be stupid. He stays.
There's nothing better than to realize that the good things about youth don't end with youth itself. It's a matter of realizing that life can be renewed every day you get out of bed without baggage. It's tough to get there, but it's better than the dark thoughts. -Lance
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<!--quoteo(post=64820:date=Sep 30 2009, 02:38 PM:name=PcB)-->QUOTE (PcB @ Sep 30 2009, 02:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Don't tell Scarey Z's not an Ace...<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Carlos Zambrano's 162 game averages:
IP: 212
ERA: 3.50
SO: 181
ERA+: 127
Roy Halladay's 162 game averages:
IP: 232
ERA: 3.45
SO: 169
ERA+: 133
The only thing that Halladay is decisively better than Zambrano in is innings pitched, and there's nobody besides Halladay in this era that can throw 230 innings every single year.
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<!--quoteo(post=64833:date=Sep 30 2009, 04:07 PM:name=Scarey)-->QUOTE (Scarey @ Sep 30 2009, 04:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=64820:date=Sep 30 2009, 02:38 PM:name=PcB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PcB @ Sep 30 2009, 02:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Don't tell Scarey Z's not an Ace...<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Carlos Zambrano's 162 game averages:
IP: 212
ERA: 3.50
SO: 181
ERA+: 127
Roy Halladay's 162 game averages:
IP: 232
ERA: 3.45
SO: 169
ERA+: 133
The only thing that Halladay is decisively better than Zambrano in is innings pitched, and there's nobody besides Halladay in this era that can throw 230 innings every single year.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My guess is that Z has more game winning RBIs that Roy.
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<!--quoteo(post=64833:date=Sep 30 2009, 04:07 PM:name=Scarey)-->QUOTE (Scarey @ Sep 30 2009, 04:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=64820:date=Sep 30 2009, 02:38 PM:name=PcB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PcB @ Sep 30 2009, 02:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Don't tell Scarey Z's not an Ace...<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Carlos Zambrano's 162 game averages:
IP: 212
ERA: 3.50
SO: 181
ERA+: 127
Roy Halladay's 162 game averages:
IP: 232
ERA: 3.45
SO: 169
ERA+: 133
The only thing that Halladay is decisively better than Zambrano in is innings pitched, and there's nobody besides Halladay in this era that can throw 230 innings every single year.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't have time to argue, but I wanted to share these words that Fly just texted me with. "To be an ace, you have to be consistent and not rock a high 3 ERA and only have a 2 to 1 K/BB ratio"
I happen to agree with him.
"I'm not sure I know what ball cheese or crotch rot is, exactly -- or if there is a difference between the two. Don't post photos, please..."
- Butcher
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<!--quoteo(post=64833:date=Sep 30 2009, 04:07 PM:name=Scarey)-->QUOTE (Scarey @ Sep 30 2009, 04:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=64820:date=Sep 30 2009, 02:38 PM:name=PcB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PcB @ Sep 30 2009, 02:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Don't tell Scarey Z's not an Ace...<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Carlos Zambrano's 162 game averages:
IP: 212
ERA: 3.50
SO: 181
ERA+: 127
Roy Halladay's 162 game averages:
IP: 232
ERA: 3.45
SO: 169
ERA+: 133
The only thing that Halladay is decisively better than Zambrano in is innings pitched, and there's nobody besides Halladay in this era that can throw 230 innings every single year.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
BTW
Halladay's 162 game averages:
BB/9 - 2.0
BB - 52
Zambrano's 162 game averages:
BB/9 - 4
BB - 95
I might be the only one but I find those stats important.
"I'm not sure I know what ball cheese or crotch rot is, exactly -- or if there is a difference between the two. Don't post photos, please..."
- Butcher
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Z isn't an "ace," but he's the closest thing we've got.
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<!--quoteo(post=64833:date=Sep 30 2009, 05:07 PM:name=Scarey)-->QUOTE (Scarey @ Sep 30 2009, 05:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=64820:date=Sep 30 2009, 02:38 PM:name=PcB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PcB @ Sep 30 2009, 02:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Don't tell Scarey Z's not an Ace...<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Carlos Zambrano's 162 game averages:
IP: 212
ERA: 3.50
SO: 181
ERA+: 127
Roy Halladay's 162 game averages:
IP: 232
ERA: 3.45
SO: 169
ERA+: 133
The only thing that Halladay is decisively better than Zambrano in is innings pitched, and there's nobody besides Halladay in this era that can throw 230 innings every single year.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Those are nice, but Z hasn't had numbers as good as his averages over the last 3 years. I wasn't contending in my text to PCB that he wasn't an ace in the past, just that he no longer is one, to me, now.
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