Cubs and Grabow discussing multi-year deal

[Butcher]

<!--quoteo(post=70133:date=Nov 24 2009, 04:13 PM:name=Scarey)-->QUOTE (Scarey @ Nov 24 2009, 04:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->By the way cold, my comment had nothing to do with your personal mental capacity. I apologize if you took it that way. My comment was meant to point out that despite a great wealth of knowledge of the game of baseball, you're not a GM and Hendry is... and I think there's a reason for that. No offense.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because Jim Hendry is one of the elite group of 30 men in the world who could even imagine doing such a job? Because his knowledge and resources have allowed him to rise to the top against all odds? What's the reason?

We've had this discussion before, I know...but if given the right connections and opportunities, I am certain that there are several people on this site that could do an adequate job as an MLB GM.

[dk123]

I don't really think Hendry's problem is the contracts he's given out, it's the players he's chosen to sign to begin with.

[Qalex1]

<!--quoteo(post=70116:date=Nov 24 2009, 08:51 AM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Nov 24 2009, 08:51 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I'm not saying you need to survey every GM. I'm asking you to use common sense. Do you think Hendry is so stupid, he doesn't know the market as well as a bunch of guys on the Cubs message board? Or do you think he knows the market, but decided to throw away an extra 10-15 million dollars? One of those 2 things has to be true for your argument to be true.

I'd also ask, who do you guys think is an example of a GM that doesn't make those types of FA mistakes?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

At the risk of showing up late to the party, BT your argument seems to be:

1) We as fans are operating with very imperfect information
2) Jim Hendry as the Cubs GM is operating with much better information

so for us (with our imperfect information) to shout that Jim Hendry (with his much better information) is WAY overpaying for FA’s is just unfair.

But is JH really operating with that much better information? Where is all his extra information coming from? The other GMs are his competitors. They’re not calling him up saying “Hey Jim, we just offered Bradley a 3 year deal.” It seems to me that at best, he’s getting calls from player’s agents (who aren’t exactly incented to give him the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth) telling him what they’ve got. At that point JH has to decide, using almost the same information a well informed fan has, what to believe.

So, for that well informed fan to say “Hendry made an insanely stupid decision and I would have done it differently” isn’t really all that unfair.

[BT]

<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->So, for that well informed fan to say “Hendry made an insanely stupid decision and I would have done it differently” isn’t really all that unfair<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Which is why, for the hundredth time, I'm not arguing that. You are more than welcome to say it was a bad decision. You are not more than welcome to say that it was a bad decision BECAUSE his only other offer was for 2 years, 13 million dollars. Because you have no idea what the other offers were.

I don't know how else to explain this. It's no different than saying it's unfair to rip Hendry for a trade he didn't make, because we have no idea as to whether or not that trade was actually offered to him.

[Butcher]

<!--quoteo(post=70153:date=Nov 25 2009, 12:41 PM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Nov 25 2009, 12:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <!--quotec-->So, for that well informed fan to say “Hendry made an insanely stupid decision and I would have done it differently” isn’t really all that unfair<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Which is why, for the hundredth time, I'm not arguing that. You are more than welcome to say it was a bad decision. You are not more than welcome to say that it was a bad decision BECAUSE his only other offer was for 2 years, 13 million dollars. Because you have no idea what the other offers were.

I don't know how else to explain this. It's no different than saying it's unfair to rip Hendry for a trade he didn't make, because we have no idea as to whether or not that trade was actually offered to him.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Can we not safely assume that there weren't a line of GMs, all clamoring to give Bradley a multi-year contract? His fragile nature, combined with his not-so-pleasant personality, combined with the drama that always seems to surround him, etc. Everyone knows (not just GMs) that he was a major risk. Why sign a guy like that for 3 years? How many GMs were going to be willing to do this?

It isn't rocket science -- it's common sense.

[BT]

<!--quoteo(post=70154:date=Nov 25 2009, 12:55 PM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Nov 25 2009, 12:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=70153:date=Nov 25 2009, 12:41 PM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Nov 25 2009, 12:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <!--quotec-->So, for that well informed fan to say “Hendry made an insanely stupid decision and I would have done it differently” isn’t really all that unfair<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Which is why, for the hundredth time, I'm not arguing that. You are more than welcome to say it was a bad decision. You are not more than welcome to say that it was a bad decision BECAUSE his only other offer was for 2 years, 13 million dollars. Because you have no idea what the other offers were.

I don't know how else to explain this. It's no different than saying it's unfair to rip Hendry for a trade he didn't make, because we have no idea as to whether or not that trade was actually offered to him.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Can we not safely assume that there weren't a line of GMs, all clamoring to give Bradley a multi-year contract? His fragile nature, combined with his not-so-pleasant personality, combined with the drama that always seems to surround him, etc. Everyone knows (not just GMs) that he was a major risk. Why sign a guy like that for 3 years? How many GMs were going to be willing to do this?

It isn't rocket science -- it's common sense.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

It doesn't take a line of GM's, just one with a checkbook. Hendry found that out when he offered Furcal, who was expected to get 8 million a year, 10 million. The Dodgers then swooped in and offered 13. So if someone else offered Bradley a similar contract, and Hendry had (rightly or wrongly) concluded the other remaining FA RFs' couldn't play right field, we would be screwed.

Can you tell me, with absolute certainty, that no other GM offered Bradley 3/25?

[Coldneck]

<!--quoteo(post=70155:date=Nov 25 2009, 02:03 PM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Nov 25 2009, 02:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=70154:date=Nov 25 2009, 12:55 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Nov 25 2009, 12:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=70153:date=Nov 25 2009, 12:41 PM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Nov 25 2009, 12:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <!--quotec-->So, for that well informed fan to say “Hendry made an insanely stupid decision and I would have done it differently” isn’t really all that unfair<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Which is why, for the hundredth time, I'm not arguing that. You are more than welcome to say it was a bad decision. You are not more than welcome to say that it was a bad decision BECAUSE his only other offer was for 2 years, 13 million dollars. Because you have no idea what the other offers were.

I don't know how else to explain this. It's no different than saying it's unfair to rip Hendry for a trade he didn't make, because we have no idea as to whether or not that trade was actually offered to him.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Can we not safely assume that there weren't a line of GMs, all clamoring to give Bradley a multi-year contract? His fragile nature, combined with his not-so-pleasant personality, combined with the drama that always seems to surround him, etc. Everyone knows (not just GMs) that he was a major risk. Why sign a guy like that for 3 years? How many GMs were going to be willing to do this?

It isn't rocket science -- it's common sense.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

It doesn't take a line of GM's, just one with a checkbook. Hendry found that out when he offered Furcal, who was expected to get 8 million a year, 10 million. The Dodgers then swooped in and offered 13. So if someone else offered Bradley a similar contract, and Hendry had (rightly or wrongly) concluded the other remaining FA RFs' couldn't play right field, we would be screwed.

Can you tell me, with absolute certainty, that no other GM offered Bradley 3/25?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Of course I cannot. I can tell you that if they did they are nearly as dumb as JH.

[BT]

just to be clear coldneck, you were against this move as it happened? Before the season?

[Butcher]

<!--quoteo(post=70155:date=Nov 25 2009, 01:03 PM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Nov 25 2009, 01:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=70154:date=Nov 25 2009, 12:55 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Nov 25 2009, 12:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=70153:date=Nov 25 2009, 12:41 PM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Nov 25 2009, 12:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <!--quotec-->So, for that well informed fan to say “Hendry made an insanely stupid decision and I would have done it differently” isn’t really all that unfair<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Which is why, for the hundredth time, I'm not arguing that. You are more than welcome to say it was a bad decision. You are not more than welcome to say that it was a bad decision BECAUSE his only other offer was for 2 years, 13 million dollars. Because you have no idea what the other offers were.

I don't know how else to explain this. It's no different than saying it's unfair to rip Hendry for a trade he didn't make, because we have no idea as to whether or not that trade was actually offered to him.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Can we not safely assume that there weren't a line of GMs, all clamoring to give Bradley a multi-year contract? His fragile nature, combined with his not-so-pleasant personality, combined with the drama that always seems to surround him, etc. Everyone knows (not just GMs) that he was a major risk. Why sign a guy like that for 3 years? How many GMs were going to be willing to do this?

It isn't rocket science -- it's common sense.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

It doesn't take a line of GM's, just one with a checkbook. Hendry found that out when he offered Furcal, who was expected to get 8 million a year, 10 million. The Dodgers then swooped in and offered 13. So if someone else offered Bradley a similar contract, and Hendry had (rightly or wrongly) concluded the other remaining FA RFs' couldn't play right field, we would be screwed.

Can you tell me, with absolute certainty, that no other GM offered Bradley 3/25?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of course not. But most of the shit we talk about on here can't be declared with "absolute certainty."

[Butcher]

Let me amend my original comment, BT.

I believe that signing Bradley to a 3-year deal was unwise. I don't think it was the worst deal in the world, but I think a 2-year contract would have been much smarter -- even if Hendry had to up the cash a little to make that happen.

[BT]

<!--quoteo(post=70159:date=Nov 25 2009, 01:23 PM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Nov 25 2009, 01:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Let me amend my original comment, BT.

I believe that signing Bradley to a 3-year deal was unwise. I don't think it was the worst deal in the world, but I think a 2-year contract would have been much smarter -- even if Hendry had to up the cash a little to make that happen.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


I have no problem with that.

[SandbergMVP1984]

The Fucal signing was the same thing to Hendry that the fastball was to the head of Sosa. Neither was the same after.

[Coldneck]

<!--quoteo(post=70157:date=Nov 25 2009, 02:16 PM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Nov 25 2009, 02:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->just to be clear coldneck, you were against this move as it happened? Before the season?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If I recall, I was excited to have Bradley after his excellent 2008 season. I recall thinking that the contract was too much and too long though. I think I was also in favor of Adam Dunn being our FA outfield signing. Bradley is just a one of several players Hendry has overspent on.

[BT]

<!--quoteo(post=70164:date=Nov 25 2009, 02:06 PM:name=Coldneck)-->QUOTE (Coldneck @ Nov 25 2009, 02:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=70157:date=Nov 25 2009, 02:16 PM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Nov 25 2009, 02:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->just to be clear coldneck, you were against this move as it happened? Before the season?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If I recall, I was excited to have Bradley after his excellent 2008 season. I recall thinking that the contract was too much and too long though. I think I was also in favor of Adam Dunn being our FA outfield signing. Bradley is just a one of several players Hendry has overspent on.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


This isn't to single you out coldneck, just to show how we all seem to be dealing with a bit of Monday morning QBing when it comes to how "stupid" Hendry was. go back to this thread. Not only Does it show a link to a story describing how the Nationals were going after Bradley, but you said this (after it had been revealed we were probably giving Bradley 3/30):

<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->So, why hasn't Bradley's signing been completed?

Is it because we haven't offered enough money and Bradley is waiting us out? Is it becauce we still need to move others to obtain him? Either way I just wish this would be finalized. I'm afraid we'll wait too long and he'll end up going elsewhere.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Not only were you cool with the terms, you thought it might not be enough.

Again, we can find damning quote like these for all of us on this board (including me), and I'm not trying to say Bradley was a good signing. But if you read through that thread, if Hendry was a "moron" for wanting Bradley and not being able to read the obvious signs that he was a powderkeg, then most of us were morons as well. Almost all of the questions we had then were with his health, not his head.

the obvious difference is that Hendry is the only one paid to make these decisions, so the fact that most of us were wrong as well does NOT mean Hendry isn't responsible for this mess, but it does show that the eventual train wreck wasn't quite as obvious in January as it was in November.

[BT]

Oh, and I found that quote AFTER I asked you that question, so I wasn't trying to trap you when I asked it. I honestly didn't know where you stood.