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<!--quoteo(post=70374:date=Dec 1 2009, 08:56 AM:name=Coldneck)-->QUOTE (Coldneck @ Dec 1 2009, 08:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->This is a little off topic but I didn't want to start a whole new thread. I saw today that Halladay will not allow the Jays to trade him after spring training begins. So they now must trade him during the offseason with little leverage. Most likely his new team will get a great deal. I am pretty sure the Cubs don't have the money available to pay him next season much less resign him for the years ahead. The reason is because Hendry blew his wad all over the place <b>signing replacement level players to expensive multi year deals</b>, siging aging stars without a position for outrageous money and years, and handing out 3 years to a powder keg than cannot stay healthy. <b>Opportunities like Halladay are the reasons to spend wisely and maintain financial flexibility</b>. With a top 5 payroll (top 3, actually) we should be in a position to make a move like this. Unfortunately we are stuck for the next 3-4 years with no flexibility and an aging group of former stars. FML.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Since you seem to have your detractors, I will chime in with some enthusiastic support: the above is one of the better posts this year on SOI.
Every time a guy like Halladay comes up in the media, the reports are that the Red Sox, Mets and Yanks are fighting over him. Why not us? Seriously.
The answer is in the above paragraph.
There's nothing better than to realize that the good things about youth don't end with youth itself. It's a matter of realizing that life can be renewed every day you get out of bed without baggage. It's tough to get there, but it's better than the dark thoughts. -Lance
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<!--quoteo(post=70396:date=Dec 1 2009, 12:16 PM:name=Scarey)-->QUOTE (Scarey @ Dec 1 2009, 12:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=70388:date=Dec 1 2009, 12:39 PM:name=Coldneck)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coldneck @ Dec 1 2009, 12:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Scarey, we'll never be on the same page about Hendry so I'm not surprised by your argument. The short answer to your question is yes, but it is much more complicated than that. The Soriano signing is just one of the several major misktakes that JH has made, amongst several other minor ones. But let me examine the Soriano signing in a vacuum since that is what you specificially mentioned. First of all, I think signing ANY player to an 8 year deal is a big mistake. There are too many variables and too many examples of players declining once they reach the 32-35 age range. The decline is especially large for players that rely on speed, which was one of Soriano's major attributes. Soriano also did not have a position that he played adequately. He was a butcher at 2B, and just as bad in LF for the Nationals. He fought tooth and nail when the Astros and then the Nats tried to move him to the OF. Even more absurd is that JH signed Soriano to play CF, which is a premium position, after a full year of Soriano showing he couldn't play LF. So yes, I would advocate trade for Halladay, and signing him to no more than a 4 year extension. Halladay is one of the top 4 best pitchers in the game. There are many more examples of pitchers succeeding late in their 30s than offensive players. To quote Keith Law:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <!--quotec-->Halladay's frame, mechanics, pitch efficiency and track record all suggest a pitcher who is freakishly durable. He's also never had a major arm injury. If I was going to bet on any starter to throw 800 innings over the next four years, it would probably be Doc.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Instead of arguing about the Soriano signing, why don't you argue my main point which is that Hendry's poor decisions have cost us the flexibility to go after top notch talent for the next few years. This should never be the case if you operate with such a large payroll.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My point wasn't that the Soriano signing was good, or acceptable, or defendable at the time. I disagreed with the length when he was signed too. My point is that for what Halladay is going to cost in prospects, it's not worth it. If this team was a sure fire playoff team in need of a playoff starter, Halladay would be worth it. As it is, this team will be in the hunt for the playoffs, but aren't exactly a shoe in. There's more work to be done than simply adding Halladay.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree, I think signing Halladay makes this team an instant world series contender (on paper). No matter how bad we look last year at times, if we stay healthy I think we get in as the wild card at least. This team isn't that far away and a durable #1 starter goes a long way.
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<!--quoteo(post=70397:date=Dec 1 2009, 01:16 PM:name=KBwsb)-->QUOTE (KBwsb @ Dec 1 2009, 01:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=70374:date=Dec 1 2009, 08:56 AM:name=Coldneck)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coldneck @ Dec 1 2009, 08:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->This is a little off topic but I didn't want to start a whole new thread. I saw today that Halladay will not allow the Jays to trade him after spring training begins. So they now must trade him during the offseason with little leverage. Most likely his new team will get a great deal. I am pretty sure the Cubs don't have the money available to pay him next season much less resign him for the years ahead. The reason is because Hendry blew his wad all over the place <b>signing replacement level players to expensive multi year deals</b>, siging aging stars without a position for outrageous money and years, and handing out 3 years to a powder keg than cannot stay healthy. <b>Opportunities like Halladay are the reasons to spend wisely and maintain financial flexibility</b>. With a top 5 payroll (top 3, actually) we should be in a position to make a move like this. Unfortunately we are stuck for the next 3-4 years with no flexibility and an aging group of former stars. FML.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Since you seem to have your detractors, I will chime in with some enthusiastic support: the above is one of the better posts this year on SOI.
Every time a guy like Halladay comes up in the media, the reports are that the Red Sox, Mets and Yanks are fighting over him. Why not us? Seriously.
The answer is in the above paragraph.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree with the way the finances have been managed as well. However, Roy Halladay isn't the way you fix those problems.
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<!--quoteo(post=70393:date=Dec 1 2009, 11:56 AM:name=Coldneck)-->QUOTE (Coldneck @ Dec 1 2009, 11:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=70392:date=Dec 1 2009, 12:52 PM:name=MW4)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MW4 @ Dec 1 2009, 12:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I think that Halladay quote was the same one that was quoted for Prior, just sayin.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Halladay has 10+ years of success. Not even comparable.
And oh shit, I see BT has been typing a response. Here's comes my beating.
Edit - I guess he gave me a pass. His name is no longer in italics below.
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I was going to let you have it, but it's not worth it. I'll try to point out that Soriano was a major reason for us making the playoffs in 07 and 08, and that while an argument can be made that the Grabow and Miles signing weren't exactly thrifty they hardly constitute a major roadblock for signing Halladay. Then you'd accuse me of blowing Hendry, and then KB will post that you've made the best argument of the year (oh wait, that already happened).
We've basically already had this argument, about 100 times.
I wish that I believed in Fate. I wish I didn't sleep so late. I used to be carried in the arms of cheerleaders.
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Coldneck, when you said that BT gave Hendry fellatio,
that was the greatest post in world history. Ever.
[img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif[/img]
There's nothing better than to realize that the good things about youth don't end with youth itself. It's a matter of realizing that life can be renewed every day you get out of bed without baggage. It's tough to get there, but it's better than the dark thoughts. -Lance
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<!--quoteo(post=70398:date=Dec 1 2009, 01:21 PM:name=Sandberg)-->QUOTE (Sandberg @ Dec 1 2009, 01:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=70396:date=Dec 1 2009, 12:16 PM:name=Scarey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Scarey @ Dec 1 2009, 12:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=70388:date=Dec 1 2009, 12:39 PM:name=Coldneck)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coldneck @ Dec 1 2009, 12:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Scarey, we'll never be on the same page about Hendry so I'm not surprised by your argument. The short answer to your question is yes, but it is much more complicated than that. The Soriano signing is just one of the several major misktakes that JH has made, amongst several other minor ones. But let me examine the Soriano signing in a vacuum since that is what you specificially mentioned. First of all, I think signing ANY player to an 8 year deal is a big mistake. There are too many variables and too many examples of players declining once they reach the 32-35 age range. The decline is especially large for players that rely on speed, which was one of Soriano's major attributes. Soriano also did not have a position that he played adequately. He was a butcher at 2B, and just as bad in LF for the Nationals. He fought tooth and nail when the Astros and then the Nats tried to move him to the OF. Even more absurd is that JH signed Soriano to play CF, which is a premium position, after a full year of Soriano showing he couldn't play LF. So yes, I would advocate trade for Halladay, and signing him to no more than a 4 year extension. Halladay is one of the top 4 best pitchers in the game. There are many more examples of pitchers succeeding late in their 30s than offensive players. To quote Keith Law:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <!--quotec-->Halladay's frame, mechanics, pitch efficiency and track record all suggest a pitcher who is freakishly durable. He's also never had a major arm injury. If I was going to bet on any starter to throw 800 innings over the next four years, it would probably be Doc.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Instead of arguing about the Soriano signing, why don't you argue my main point which is that Hendry's poor decisions have cost us the flexibility to go after top notch talent for the next few years. This should never be the case if you operate with such a large payroll.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My point wasn't that the Soriano signing was good, or acceptable, or defendable at the time. I disagreed with the length when he was signed too. My point is that for what Halladay is going to cost in prospects, it's not worth it. If this team was a sure fire playoff team in need of a playoff starter, Halladay would be worth it. As it is, this team will be in the hunt for the playoffs, but aren't exactly a shoe in. There's more work to be done than simply adding Halladay.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree, I think signing Halladay makes this team an instant world series contender (on paper). No matter how bad we look last year at times, if we stay healthy I think we get in as the wild card at least. This team isn't that far away and a durable #1 starter goes a long way.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Cubs last year had the 5th best starter ERA in the league last year. The Giants were tied for number 2 and Atlanta number 1 and they didn't make the playoffs either. It doesn't matter if you pitch well if you can't hit. I personally do think that Soto and Soriano will hit better than last year. Not sure how much better, but better none-the-less. I just don't think this team can be counted as a sure fire playoff team with or without Halladay.
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BT sure sucks on Jim Hendry's penis a lot.
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Or butch could do it for you. Either way.
I wish that I believed in Fate. I wish I didn't sleep so late. I used to be carried in the arms of cheerleaders.
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Scarey and BT, you both have made good points. However, I do think that Halladay > our #5 starter, makes us a playoff team.
And even more importantly, it makes us look a LOT more formidable<b> in</b> the playoffs.
But there are always negatives, too, in these kinds of deals, as you have correctly pointed out.
There's nothing better than to realize that the good things about youth don't end with youth itself. It's a matter of realizing that life can be renewed every day you get out of bed without baggage. It's tough to get there, but it's better than the dark thoughts. -Lance
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let me go ahead and agree with neck on this one. the soriano signing doesn't compare to possibly signing halladay. halladay at 4 years is reasonable. soriano at 8 isn't. plus, haladay makes a a favorite in the division. he's worth the "risk" and i don't think it's a risk at all.
Wang.
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What makes you guys think Halladay will only be looking for a 4 year deal? This is his last pay day, I'm thinking he's going to try to get as much as he can.
Also, 4 years at his age is quite a gamble. I'd say it was at least as much a gamble as Bradley was, maybe even more.
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<!--quoteo(post=70402:date=Dec 1 2009, 12:35 PM:name=Scarey)-->QUOTE (Scarey @ Dec 1 2009, 12:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->The Cubs last year had the 5th best starter ERA in the league last year. The Giants were tied for number 2 and Atlanta number 1 and they didn't make the playoffs either. It doesn't matter if you pitch well if you can't hit. I personally do think that Soto and Soriano will hit better than last year. Not sure how much better, but better none-the-less. I just don't think this team can be counted as a sure fire playoff team with or without Halladay.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My point is that we almost certainly *will* hit better than last year and as it is, I think our pitching will be worse. You need to factor that Aramis and Bradely will hit better too. We were extremely unlucky (even by Cubs standards) last year and still were theoretically in it until the last couple of weeks of the season. Halladay solidifies this team exactly where we need it.
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<!--quoteo(post=70409:date=Dec 1 2009, 02:20 PM:name=Scarey)-->QUOTE (Scarey @ Dec 1 2009, 02:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->What makes you guys think Halladay will only be looking for a 4 year deal? This is his last pay day, I'm thinking he's going to try to get as much as he can.
Also, 4 years at his age is quite a gamble. <b>I'd say it was at least as much a gamble as Bradley was, maybe even more</b>.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That just wrong. There is no other way to put it.
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<!--quoteo(post=70413:date=Dec 1 2009, 01:23 PM:name=Coldneck)-->QUOTE (Coldneck @ Dec 1 2009, 01:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=70409:date=Dec 1 2009, 02:20 PM:name=Scarey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Scarey @ Dec 1 2009, 02:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->What makes you guys think Halladay will only be looking for a 4 year deal? This is his last pay day, I'm thinking he's going to try to get as much as he can.
Also, 4 years at his age is quite a gamble. <b>I'd say it was at least as much a gamble as Bradley was, maybe even more</b>.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That just wrong. There is no other way to put it.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is a point, as the contrtact gets bigger, that it is more of a gamble than Bradley. I think Halladay is worth it for next year alone. No need to give him a crazy extention.
I like you guys a lot.
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According to Kaplan, Harden, Gregg and Johnson have been told they will not be offered arbitration.
http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/david-kapl...on-tuesday.html
So why did the Cubs shut him down for the last 3 weeks of the season? Did management need to be certain that he would be healthy for his next team?
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