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<!--quoteo(post=74196:date=Jan 5 2010, 06:54 PM:name=ColoradoCub)-->QUOTE (ColoradoCub @ Jan 5 2010, 06:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=74190:date=Jan 5 2010, 04:44 PM:name=Ace)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ace @ Jan 5 2010, 04:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->May he become their Soriano.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Soriano contract paved the way for this one, just sayin'
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Score one for Jim Hendry!
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<!--quoteo(post=74208:date=Jan 5 2010, 07:12 PM:name=Ace)-->QUOTE (Ace @ Jan 5 2010, 07:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=74196:date=Jan 5 2010, 06:54 PM:name=ColoradoCub)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ColoradoCub @ Jan 5 2010, 06:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=74190:date=Jan 5 2010, 04:44 PM:name=Ace)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ace @ Jan 5 2010, 04:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->May he become their Soriano.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Soriano contract paved the way for this one, just sayin'
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Score one for Jim Hendry!
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
[img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif[/img]
I'm 100% fine with this. I'm just glad there's an actual plan in place that isn't, "Let's load up on retreads and hope we get lucky." I'm a little tired of that plan.
Butcher
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$33 million for Pujols and Holliday in 2010, the teams 2009 opening day payroll was $88.5 million. In 2008 it was $99.6 million. If they bump total payroll back up to 2008 levels, thats 2 players making 1/3 of their payroll, thats crazy. Add Carpenter's $14.5 million an Lohse's $9 millions and thats 60% of your payroll for 4 players. This one is going to bite them in the ass, especially since the Cards farm system is pretty lame.
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This made my night. That is a terrible contract and I think Holliday is way way way overrated. Look at his splits at Coors and then look at his numbers at oakland. He had two huge months with the Cardinals and there is no way he can duplicate them. If I were a Cardinal fan I'd be pissed off. Remember who is going to be his hitting coach? Its the same guy that he blamed for sucking in Oakland because he changed his swing in the offseason. Me likey this a lot.
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<!--quoteo(post=74201:date=Jan 5 2010, 04:04 PM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Jan 5 2010, 04:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->There's no way they can lock up Pujols to a long-term deal after this...right?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think that there is no way they would do this deal without a pooholes framework in place.
Fat Bastard is an immensely obese, hardly able to walk (weighing a metric ton) gardener and henchman hailing from Scotland. His extreme size endows Fat Bastard with super-human strength as exhibited by his prowess in the Sumo ring from Goldmember. This makes him a formidable enemy for Austin Powers. Fat Bastard is noted for his foul temper, his frequent flatulence, his vulgar and revolting bad manners and his unusual eating habits, which include taste for Human infants (which he calls "the other other white meat") or anything that looks like a baby, e.g. small people. Fat Bastard has been a regular at Cub games since the early 80's when he tried several times (unsuccessfully) to eat the visiting San Diego Chicken.
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Keith Law's take:
<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->Matt Holliday's deal is certainly a good one for the player; he gets a premium salary, averaging $17 million a year, covering his age 30-36 seasons, with a full no-trade clause, and gets to stay in the league where he's performed well and in a city where he's going to see a few more playoff appearances, with an excellent chance at another ring.
The short term offers great hope for the Cardinals, but what will they think of this deal in five years?
You could do a lot worse.
<b>But given the lack of another clear bidder for Holliday's services -- you'll have to forgive me if I put the Mystery Team in the same category as the Tooth Fairy and the homunculus -- it's even more impressive for Holliday and his agent, Scott Boras, to get this kind of annual salary.</b>
That's because the Cardinals assume pretty significant risk with this contract in exchange for two short-term rewards.
The first reward is that they are the very strong favorites to win the NL Central again in 2010, even with the downgrade from Joel Pineiro to Brad Penny in their rotation, because they'll get a full season of Holliday and improvement from Colby Rasmus, and <b>because no other team in that division is very good.</b> And since their core of Holliday, Albert Pujols, Chris Carpenter, and Adam Wainwright are all under control (including option years) through 2011, they look good now for contention in that season as well, with maybe Cincinnati the most likely team to challenge them by that point.
The second reward, theoretically, is that they can at least argue to Pujols -- whose contract is up after the 2011 option -- that they have committed to build a contender around him long-term. Ultimately they'll have to pay him a market salary or something close to it, but to the extent that winning matters to him, they are better positioned to argue that he has a chance to win if he sticks around.
But yes, there's a downside. The problem for St. Louis is the length of the deal. It carries Holliday, an awkward defender in left field (who does, however, rate well in most defensive metrics), into his mid-30s, by which point he'll likely lose his defensive value and some of his offensive value as well. But, assuming they sign Pujols (and I believe they will), it also sets the team up to have $65 million or more committed to those four core players in 2012, after which they'd have to pony up again to retain Wainwright or Carpenter. Remember: this for a franchise that has never started a season with a payroll above $100 million. Even with inflation, they look to far surpass that in the near future.
<b>This means that St. Louis could be stuck constantly looking to find players to fill out their roster who perform well for below-market salaries. Most teams do this via the farm system, but the Cardinals have used their prospects as trade fodder and right now have one of the thinnest systems in the game.</b>
Rasmus projects as a star in center and won't reach a seven-figure salary till 2012, but between him and 2009 first-rounder Shelby Miller there's little star power in the system, so by the midpoint of Holliday's deal, they're going to be left relying on prospects developing unexpectedly well (like Brendan Ryan did with the glove) or on their ability to find value players like Ryan Ludwick who can produce for the minimum or arbitration-controlled salaries.
Of course, a pennant or two in the early part of the deal would make the contract seem well worth it to Cardinal fans. At least in the short term.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
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Well, maybe this lights a fire under Jim and or Ricketts's ass to get something done.
I love how we're written off already.
Fat Bastard is an immensely obese, hardly able to walk (weighing a metric ton) gardener and henchman hailing from Scotland. His extreme size endows Fat Bastard with super-human strength as exhibited by his prowess in the Sumo ring from Goldmember. This makes him a formidable enemy for Austin Powers. Fat Bastard is noted for his foul temper, his frequent flatulence, his vulgar and revolting bad manners and his unusual eating habits, which include taste for Human infants (which he calls "the other other white meat") or anything that looks like a baby, e.g. small people. Fat Bastard has been a regular at Cub games since the early 80's when he tried several times (unsuccessfully) to eat the visiting San Diego Chicken.
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Wow. Law doesn't even mention us. The Reds even get a mention.
We were the obvious favorites last year and now we are a complete afterthought.
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<!--quoteo(post=74195:date=Jan 5 2010, 05:54 PM:name=savant)-->QUOTE (savant @ Jan 5 2010, 05:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->This contract makes me think the Cardinals believe that Pussjewels is going to test the free agent market.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's why this makes me smile. I still believe that if we can keep it together, we match up pretty well against the Cards though.
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This should be interesting. The Cardinals have 4 great players, a couple of good players, and a whole bunch of suck (although I will admit I haven't glanced at their supposed 2010 roster). I guess we will see if the Superstar Theory can work.
I wish that I believed in Fate. I wish I didn't sleep so late. I used to be carried in the arms of cheerleaders.
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Most folks are saying that the Holliday deal means that Fat Albert is leaving after 2011. My guess is that without signing Holliday or another big name free agent bat, Pujols was leaving.
Now, the Cards are the favorites to win the NL Central 2010 and maybe even 2011.
With Albert, Matt, Chris and Adam as the Cardinals core for the next 2 years, the Cardinals will probably sign low-priced re-treads and have their minor league clubs provide the rest of the team.
If the Cards didn't resign Holliday, last summer's trading away of top prospect Bruce Wallace and a couple of other high draft picks resulted in a total of 0 playoffs wins. The trade was a sunk cost but the emotional side of most people would feel that as long as they have already put this much cash in the pot, they need to buck up the ante to see how the hand ends.
With paying big for Holliday, the Cardinals take the chance that they can win now and probably next year then get Pujols to sign for less than market price in 2012.
I can understand the circumstances behind paying Holliday, I just hope that the 2010 and 2011 Cubs remain healthy, get a bit lucky and beat the hell out of the Cardinals.
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You can't compare him to Bay. Bay is so epically bad in the field that it really cancels out a lot of his value as a hitter. He's worse than Soriano defensively.
This deal will be fine for them in the first few years and terrible for them after that. As it stands they'll probably pay him about $3.5MM per WAR. At the end of his contract, he'll be 37 and his production won't be there to justify the deal. That's when things will really get bad for them.
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Matt Holliday away from Coors Field:
2004 - .240/.287/.367
2005 - .256/.313/.416
2006 - .280/.333/.485
2007 - .301/.374/.485
2008 - .308/.405/.486
Mattt Holliday in Coors Field:
2004 - .338/.406/.603
2005 - .357/.409/.593
2006 - .373/.440/.692
2007 - .376/.435/.722
2008 - .332/.413/.584
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<!--quoteo(post=74272:date=Jan 6 2010, 09:24 AM:name=Coldneck)-->QUOTE (Coldneck @ Jan 6 2010, 09:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Matt Holliday away from Coors Field:
2004 - .240/.287/.367
2005 - .256/.313/.416
2006 - .280/.333/.485
2007 - .301/.374/.485
2008 - .308/.405/.486
Mattt Holliday in Coors Field:
2004 - .338/.406/.603
2005 - .357/.409/.593
2006 - .373/.440/.692
2007 - .376/.435/.722
2008 - .332/.413/.584<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow. I don't like that trend at all.
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<!--quoteo(post=74273:date=Jan 6 2010, 10:54 AM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Jan 6 2010, 10:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Wow. I don't like that trend at all.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, he clearly has imporved away from Coors as the years went on. He was freaking awesome at Coors though. If he duplicates his 2008 line of .308/.405/.486 than he'd definitely great, but not elite.
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