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<!--quoteo(post=79489:date=Feb 12 2010, 08:47 PM:name=jstraw)-->QUOTE (jstraw @ Feb 12 2010, 08:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Willie was interviewed on NPR this afternoon. He's not even angry about racism. I wouldn't read too much into him not being mad at Barry.
And Slaw, hand me that towel, would ya?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's gonna have some spunk on it.
I'm not sure what Mays's attitude toward racism has to do with his attitude toward the record. I'm sure that in most respects Willie "Say Hey Kid" Goddamned Mays is long removed from the punishing effects of racism. He's a freakin' MLB institution, and I'm awfully certain that lifestyle can get pretty insular. If you're claiming that the NPR interview is proof positive that he doesn't show how he's smarting in any respect; thus, he must be fuming about the record, I claim specious reasoning. If you're saying "Well, the guy doesn't have enough sense to be mad at stuff he should be mad at, I claim--surely unintentional--paternalistic condescension.
I dunno. I would expect them (he and Aaron) to be upset, but, again, I'd expect them to be upset at the whole kit and kaboodle, not just the juicing players.
One dick can poke an eye out. A hundred dicks can move mountains.
--Veryzer
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<!--quoteo(post=79187:date=Feb 10 2010, 11:52 AM:name=VanSlawAndCottoCheese)-->QUOTE (VanSlawAndCottoCheese @ Feb 10 2010, 11:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I know this is tangential--and I'm not claiming that you're standing squarely with the baseball writers--but I can't help but feel that in the cases of some of these writers (and probably many of them), their "no" votes is hypocritical for McGwire. Many fans were throwing roids accusations (unfounded, sure, but with good reason for suspicion) back in 1998. How many of these writers--journalists, supposedly--looked into these rumors at the time? How many of them just went along for the ride, as writing about the home run chase was good ink? And if they didn't find it odd that, say, Luis Gonzalez was cranking 50+ home runs, what the hell kind of journalists are they?
I'm not relieving the players of their guilt for the decision to roid up, but these players had a network of enablers, including the journalists. Some of these people are dispensing justice a little late in the game.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think this is something we should all agree on. The woman who was beat writer for the A's for many years, wrote a column when McGuire was first up for the hall. Some bullshit about her respect for her son giving a reason to do the right thing and not vote for him. I find her vile. Steroids paid her salary, and bought her son a lot of Christmas presents. She did not do the right thing when it would have jeopardized her job.
I like you guys a lot.
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<!--quoteo(post=79501:date=Feb 13 2010, 12:21 AM:name=VanSlawAndCottoCheese)-->QUOTE (VanSlawAndCottoCheese @ Feb 13 2010, 12:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=79489:date=Feb 12 2010, 08:47 PM:name=jstraw)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jstraw @ Feb 12 2010, 08:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Willie was interviewed on NPR this afternoon. He's not even angry about racism. I wouldn't read too much into him not being mad at Barry.
And Slaw, hand me that towel, would ya?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's gonna have some spunk on it.
I'm not sure what Mays's attitude toward racism has to do with his attitude toward the record. I'm sure that in most respects Willie "Say Hey Kid" Goddamned Mays is long removed from the punishing effects of racism. He's a freakin' MLB institution, and I'm awfully certain that lifestyle can get pretty insular. If you're claiming that the NPR interview is proof positive that he doesn't show how he's smarting in any respect; thus, he must be fuming about the record, I claim specious reasoning. If you're saying "Well, the guy doesn't have enough sense to be mad at stuff he should be mad at, I claim--surely unintentional--paternalistic condescension.
I dunno. I would expect them (he and Aaron) to be upset, but, again, I'd expect them to be upset at the whole kit and kaboodle, not just the juicing players.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I should have elaborated. I used racism as example. He's not mad about ANYTHING, not <i>even</i> racism. In fact the the only thing that seems to have ever annoyed him was the way the press treated his last two seasons with the Mets. I'm suggesting that little, if anything ever pisses him off or hurts his feelings. So him having generosity of spirit toward a kid he was godfather to doesn't really support a view along the lines of "Hey, if Willie doesn't mind...who are we to criticize?" Willie doesn't seem to mind much of anything. And what's Bobby supposed to say? It's his son.
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Sammy used steroids, I've been resigned to that for years. The difference between Sosa and Mac is that Sosa put up more HOF acceptable numbers. McGwire hit a ton of home runs, finished 10th or better in MVP voting 5 times, andwon ROY and a Gold Glove (somehow). Sosa hit a ton of home runs (26 more than McGwire) a ton of hits (782 more) a ton of doubles (179 more) a ton of RBI (253 more) and had 222 more stolen bases and 39 more triples while finishing in the top-10 in MVP voting 7 times, winning it once.
So if we're going to allow cheaters in the HOF (and we already do) we should let them in based on numbers. Sammy has them, McGwire doesn't.
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162
128
There's nothing better than to realize that the good things about youth don't end with youth itself. It's a matter of realizing that life can be renewed every day you get out of bed without baggage. It's tough to get there, but it's better than the dark thoughts. -Lance
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McGwire could walk and hit home runs. So could Bob Hamelin.
Neither McGwire nor Sosa is in contention for G.O.A.T. but Sammy was a more complete player. More hits, more RBI, more runs and more than 1100 more total bases.
Sammy was the more complete player.
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<!--quoteo(post=80116:date=Feb 19 2010, 08:10 PM:name=KBwsb)-->QUOTE (KBwsb @ Feb 19 2010, 08:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->162
128<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I cunfoos...what is numbers mean?
If Angelo had picked McClellin, I would have been expecting to hear by training camp that kid has stage 4 cancer, is actually 5'2" 142 lbs, is a chick who played in a 7 - 0 defensive scheme who only rotated in on downs which were 3 and 34 yds + so is not expecting to play a down in the NFL until the sex change is complete and she puts on another 100 lbs. + but this is Emery's first pick so he'll get a pass with a bit of questioning. - 1060Ivy
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<!--quoteo(post=80127:date=Feb 20 2010, 12:15 AM:name=bz)-->QUOTE (bz @ Feb 20 2010, 12:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=80116:date=Feb 19 2010, 08:10 PM:name=KBwsb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KBwsb @ Feb 19 2010, 08:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->162
128<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I cunfoos...what is numbers mean?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
OPS+
A stat that has yet to appear on a Hall of Fame plaque.
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I love Sammy Sosa. And I dislike Mark McGwire.
Just like I love Derek Lee and dislike Albert Pujols.
There's nothing better than to realize that the good things about youth don't end with youth itself. It's a matter of realizing that life can be renewed every day you get out of bed without baggage. It's tough to get there, but it's better than the dark thoughts. -Lance
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<!--quoteo(post=80164:date=Feb 20 2010, 02:08 PM:name=KBwsb)-->QUOTE (KBwsb @ Feb 20 2010, 02:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I love Sammy Sosa. And I dislike Mark McGwire.
Just like I love Derek Lee and dislike Albert Pujols.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How are Derek Lee and Albert Pujols analogous?
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I prefer coconut cream, its far more consistent.
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<!--quoteo(post=80167:date=Feb 20 2010, 03:02 PM:name=jstraw)-->QUOTE (jstraw @ Feb 20 2010, 03:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=80164:date=Feb 20 2010, 02:08 PM:name=KBwsb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KBwsb @ Feb 20 2010, 02:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I love Sammy Sosa. And I dislike Mark McGwire.
Just like I love Derek Lee and dislike Albert Pujols.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How are Derek Lee and Albert Pujols analogous?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Derek Lee's career OPS+ is 124, which is very close to Sammy's 128.
Albert Pujols's career OPS+ is 172, which is relatively close to McGwire's 162.
So, as a hitter, McGwire is much closer to Pujols than he is to Sosa.
As I've stated, I don't like McGwire. I love Sammy. But saying he was a better player is analogous to saying that Lee is better than Pujols. Yes, I wish it were true. But we all know it isn't.
Critics of McGwire say "He could only do two things!"
That may be true, but those two things were getting on base at a phenomenal clip, and hitting home runs at a higher rate than anyone in the history of the sport.
If a hitter were to only do 2 things well,<i> those</i> would be the two things you'd most want.
Hey, this is a Cub's board. I understand the Cub love. In contrast, the Cards are our hated rivals. And as I've stated, Derrek Lee and Sammy Sosa are two of my favorite players of my lifetime.
But reality is reality. Those Cardinal players, in addition to being shitheads, were certainly great players. That's all I'm saying.
There's nothing better than to realize that the good things about youth don't end with youth itself. It's a matter of realizing that life can be renewed every day you get out of bed without baggage. It's tough to get there, but it's better than the dark thoughts. -Lance
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<!--quoteo(post=80231:date=Feb 21 2010, 08:08 PM:name=KBwsb)-->QUOTE (KBwsb @ Feb 21 2010, 08:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=80167:date=Feb 20 2010, 03:02 PM:name=jstraw)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jstraw @ Feb 20 2010, 03:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=80164:date=Feb 20 2010, 02:08 PM:name=KBwsb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KBwsb @ Feb 20 2010, 02:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I love Sammy Sosa. And I dislike Mark McGwire.
Just like I love Derek Lee and dislike Albert Pujols.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How are Derek Lee and Albert Pujols analogous?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Derek Lee's career OPS+ is 124, which is very close to Sammy's 128.
Albert Pujols's career OPS+ is 172, which is relatively close to McGwire's 162.
So, as a hitter, McGwire is much closer to Pujols than he is to Sosa.
As I've stated, I don't like McGwire. I love Sammy. But saying he was a better player is analogous to saying that Lee is better than Pujols. Yes, I wish it were true. But we all know it isn't.
Critics of McGwire say "He could only do two things!"
That may be true, but those two things were getting on base at a phenomenal clip, and hitting home runs at a higher rate than anyone in the history of the sport.
If a hitter were to only do 2 things well,<i> those</i> would be the two things you'd most want.
Hey, this is a Cub's board. I understand the Cub love. In contrast, the Cards are our hated rivals. And as I've stated, Derrek Lee and Sammy Sosa are two of my favorite players of my lifetime.
But reality is reality. Those Cardinal players, in addition to being shitheads, were certainly great players. That's all I'm saying.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Personally, I'm resigned to the possibility of never knowing if Lee is better than Pujols. Lee isn't juicing and I believe Pujols is.
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