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<!--quoteo(post=79375:date=Feb 11 2010, 09:23 PM:name=jstraw)-->QUOTE (jstraw @ Feb 11 2010, 09:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=79368:date=Feb 11 2010, 08:06 PM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Feb 11 2010, 08:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=79362:date=Feb 11 2010, 07:50 PM:name=Ace)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ace @ Feb 11 2010, 07:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=79361:date=Feb 11 2010, 08:49 PM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Feb 11 2010, 08:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=79358:date=Feb 11 2010, 07:36 PM:name=Ace)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ace @ Feb 11 2010, 07:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=79356:date=Feb 11 2010, 08:27 PM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Feb 11 2010, 08:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=79354:date=Feb 11 2010, 07:22 PM:name=Ace)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ace @ Feb 11 2010, 07:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->How can anyone be sure as to who was really the "best" in the steroid era if only some of them were using?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How do we know that everyone wasn't using them?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't need to know to hold to my position. But you DO need to know to hold to yours.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No I don't.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How can anyone be sure as to who was really the "best" in the steroid era if only some of them were using?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can look at the numbers and see who had the best, they would be the best players.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The writing students that plagiarize are the best writers...I can tell by looking at their grades!
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But here's the thing with this analogy: it would take a lot of blind faith to assume that the teachers and school officials passed the kids along without suspicion and knowledge. Where's their penalty?
There will be none. People will still flock to games, buy overpriced souvenir jerseys, and feel that justice has been meted out because the players--yes, the cheating players--who MLB rode hard to bring back the gate receipts that were hurt by the '94 strike will be denied entry to the Hall of Fame.
But, hey, chicks love the long ball, so . . .
One dick can poke an eye out. A hundred dicks can move mountains.
--Veryzer
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<!--quoteo(post=79385:date=Feb 11 2010, 10:06 PM:name=VanSlawAndCottoCheese)-->QUOTE (VanSlawAndCottoCheese @ Feb 11 2010, 10:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=79375:date=Feb 11 2010, 09:23 PM:name=jstraw)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jstraw @ Feb 11 2010, 09:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=79368:date=Feb 11 2010, 08:06 PM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Feb 11 2010, 08:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=79362:date=Feb 11 2010, 07:50 PM:name=Ace)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ace @ Feb 11 2010, 07:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=79361:date=Feb 11 2010, 08:49 PM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Feb 11 2010, 08:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=79358:date=Feb 11 2010, 07:36 PM:name=Ace)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ace @ Feb 11 2010, 07:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=79356:date=Feb 11 2010, 08:27 PM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Feb 11 2010, 08:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=79354:date=Feb 11 2010, 07:22 PM:name=Ace)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ace @ Feb 11 2010, 07:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->How can anyone be sure as to who was really the "best" in the steroid era if only some of them were using?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How do we know that everyone wasn't using them?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't need to know to hold to my position. But you DO need to know to hold to yours.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No I don't.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How can anyone be sure as to who was really the "best" in the steroid era if only some of them were using?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can look at the numbers and see who had the best, they would be the best players.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The writing students that plagiarize are the best writers...I can tell by looking at their grades!
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But here's the thing with this analogy: it would take a lot of blind faith to assume that the teachers and school officials passed the kids along without suspicion and knowledge. Where's their penalty?
There will be none. People will still flock to games, buy overpriced souvenir jerseys, and feel that justice has been meted out because the players--yes, the cheating players--who MLB rode hard to bring back the gate receipts that were hurt by the '94 strike will be denied entry to the Hall of Fame.
But, hey, chicks love the long ball, so . . .
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I totally agree that the Commissioner and the owners willfully turned a blind eye, failed to police this, shared the benefits and generally exploited the situation. I agree that there were pressures on players to juice. Yet, it was a choice and many, probably most, said no to it. For their sake and the sake of the people that sweat for the records that Bonds and the rest pissed on, I say to hell with the juicers.
Some of you that defend Sammy can't wait for Pujols to get outed. The only thing I can figure is that we're in different places because I wasn't a kid when Sammy played...he wasn't a childhood hero for me. I can't imagine I'd be good at accepting the betrayal if I had found out Banks or Williams was a fraud toward the end of their careers. I'd probably have found a way to forgive them for it.
And there is no logical underpinning to claim a juiced player is better than players from the same era that didn't juice. Stats can't prove a cheater was inherently better from those that didn't cheat. That was the basis for my analogy.
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I'm neither defending Sammy nor cheering on an investigation of Pujols. I'm hoping to the Hamburgler that the dude's clean, in fact, because, even though he wears the wrong uniform, I like for baseball to have those inexplicable freaks of nature. Unlike in politics, I'm a fervent subscriber to the "great man" theory in athletics. There were times when I watched Bonds at the plate 10 years back and thought that what I was witnessing must have been akin to watching Ruth seventy years prior. He was having opposing pitchers for lunch daily. That inexplicable dominance, where one athlete can be so much better than everyone else on the field, is exhilarating. Pedro had it as a pitcher. MJ on the basketball court, Federer on the tennis court, Tiger on the links. No, I'm not looking to tear anyone down.
The thing is, I should feel sold out by the Bonds I was watching in awe due to the steroid scandal, but I can't. Pitchers were juicing too. And he was already the best ballplayer of that era. And in any given at bat, chances were that he owned the pitcher's ass. And that's what I care most about: the individual at bat. Records are only numbers.
I wish none of them ever juiced, sure. For the health reasons. For the shitty position that put other players in. For the fact that baseball now has to deal with some of its best players over the past quarter-century will never be respected for their performances again. For the fact that the people higher up the food chain will walk away from this scot-free. But not for the records.
That said, I can understand why the Maris or Aaron clans would be upset. I can understand why you're that upset. I just can't get that outraged about the players when my blame is spraying around like bullets.
One dick can poke an eye out. A hundred dicks can move mountains.
--Veryzer
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<!--quoteo(post=79395:date=Feb 11 2010, 10:59 PM:name=VanSlawAndCottoCheese)-->QUOTE (VanSlawAndCottoCheese @ Feb 11 2010, 10:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I'm neither defending Sammy nor cheering on an investigation of Pujols. I'm hoping to the Hamburgler that the dude's clean, in fact, because, even though he wears the wrong uniform, I like for baseball to have those inexplicable freaks of nature. Unlike in politics, I'm a fervent subscriber to the "great man" theory in athletics. There were times when I watched Bonds at the plate 10 years back and thought that what I was witnessing must have been akin to watching Ruth seventy years prior. He was having opposing pitchers for lunch daily. That inexplicable dominance, where one athlete can be so much better than everyone else on the field, is exhilarating. Pedro had it as a pitcher. MJ on the basketball court, Federer on the tennis court, Tiger on the links. No, I'm not looking to tear anyone down.
The thing is, I should feel sold out by the Bonds I was watching in awe due to the steroid scandal, but I can't. Pitchers were juicing too. And he was already the best ballplayer of that era. And in any given at bat, chances were that he owned the pitcher's ass. And that's what I care most about: the individual at bat. Records are only numbers.
I wish none of them ever juiced, sure. For the health reasons. For the shitty position that put other players in. For the fact that baseball now has to deal with some of its best players over the past quarter-century will never be respected for their performances again. For the fact that the people higher up the food chain will walk away from this scot-free. But not for the records.
That said, I can understand why the Maris or Aaron clans would be upset. I can understand why you're that upset. I just can't get that outraged about the players when my blame is spraying around like bullets.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You express your point of view well. I understand it and I can't fault it. I just can't share it.
I really despise Bonds and you touched on part of why. He wasn't satisfied with being the best of his era and one of the best ever. His ego demanded that he steamroll everyone in sight.
If you show me some guy hanging on at the end of his career with a family and a big mortgage, who made it up to the bigs when he was 34 and at 37, the prospect of getting sent down looks like death. The needle looks like one more payday to retire on...I still say fuck it but I can sympathize.
You show me Bonds...where the needle is the difference between great and greatest, where he was a first ballot guy before the juice and I just boil.
Throw in the fact that two of the people his actions pissed on were his own dad and his godfather and I think there's a special place in hell for him.
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I'm a Cub Fan, and a Bud Man.
Hated Harry when he was with the Sox, and LOVED him as a Cubbie.
I'm defending Sammy and cheering on an investigation of Pujols even if they both juiced.
I'm no different than the legions of San Francisco Bonds Lovers (including Mays.)
I hate anything Cardinal, Brewer, Asstroll, Pirate, Reds, and White Soxian.
No logic just Love (and Hate)
Fat Bastard is an immensely obese, hardly able to walk (weighing a metric ton) gardener and henchman hailing from Scotland. His extreme size endows Fat Bastard with super-human strength as exhibited by his prowess in the Sumo ring from Goldmember. This makes him a formidable enemy for Austin Powers. Fat Bastard is noted for his foul temper, his frequent flatulence, his vulgar and revolting bad manners and his unusual eating habits, which include taste for Human infants (which he calls "the other other white meat") or anything that looks like a baby, e.g. small people. Fat Bastard has been a regular at Cub games since the early 80's when he tried several times (unsuccessfully) to eat the visiting San Diego Chicken.
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<!--quoteo(post=79399:date=Feb 12 2010, 12:44 AM:name=MW4)-->QUOTE (MW4 @ Feb 12 2010, 12:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I'm a Cub Fan, and a Bud Man.
Hated Harry when he was with the Sox, and LOVED him as a Cubbie.
I'm defending Sammy and cheering on an investigation of Pujols even if they both juiced.
I'm no different than the legions of San Francisco Bonds Lovers (including Mays.)
I hate anything Cardinal, Brewer, Asstroll, Pirate, Red and White Soxian.
No logic just Love (and Hate)<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why the Pirates and Red Sox hate? And hey, I love me some irrational fan Kool-Aid gulping too. But not Bud. Lord, no, not Bud.
One dick can poke an eye out. A hundred dicks can move mountains.
--Veryzer
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<!--quoteo(post=79398:date=Feb 12 2010, 12:11 AM:name=jstraw)-->QUOTE (jstraw @ Feb 12 2010, 12:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->You show me Bonds...where the needle is the difference between great and greatest, where he was a first ballot guy before the juice and I just boil.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I get this. And I agree, pretty much. I was a huge fan of Bonds, and I'm sorry that he tainted his legacy.
<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->Throw in the fact that two of the people his actions pissed on were his own dad and his godfather and I think there's a special place in hell for him.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I get this too. But I don't understand why it seems to make us more upset than it makes them.
One dick can poke an eye out. A hundred dicks can move mountains.
--Veryzer
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<b>WARNING! SAPPY SENTIMENT IMMINENT!</b>
One thing I love about this place is that I get to have debates on the internet that don't feel pointless or vapid or simply the result of the vindictive mashing of keys. I love disagreeing with smart people and talking through it. I always get a little smarter by the debate's end.
One dick can poke an eye out. A hundred dicks can move mountains.
--Veryzer
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<!--quoteo(post=79401:date=Feb 12 2010, 12:05 AM:name=VanSlawAndCottoCheese)-->QUOTE (VanSlawAndCottoCheese @ Feb 12 2010, 12:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=79398:date=Feb 12 2010, 12:11 AM:name=jstraw)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jstraw @ Feb 12 2010, 12:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->You show me Bonds...where the needle is the difference between great and greatest, where he was a first ballot guy before the juice and I just boil.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I get this. And I agree, pretty much. I was a huge fan of Bonds, and I'm sorry that he tainted his legacy.
<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->Throw in the fact that two of the people his actions pissed on were his own dad and his godfather and I think there's a special place in hell for him.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I get this too. But I don't understand why it seems to make us more upset than it makes them.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't confuse a public stance with someone's innermost feelings. No matter what I hear or read, I'll never know how Bobby or Willie really feel. It may just be PR.
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<!--quoteo(post=79400:date=Feb 11 2010, 10:01 PM:name=VanSlawAndCottoCheese)-->QUOTE (VanSlawAndCottoCheese @ Feb 11 2010, 10:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=79399:date=Feb 12 2010, 12:44 AM:name=MW4)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MW4 @ Feb 12 2010, 12:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I'm a Cub Fan, and a Bud Man.
Hated Harry when he was with the Sox, and LOVED him as a Cubbie.
I'm defending Sammy and cheering on an investigation of Pujols even if they both juiced.
I'm no different than the legions of San Francisco Bonds Lovers (including Mays.)
I hate anything Cardinal, Brewer, Asstroll, Pirate, Red and White Soxian.
No logic just Love (and Hate)<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why the Pirates and Red Sox hate? And hey, I love me some irrational fan Kool-Aid gulping too. But not Bud. Lord, no, not Bud.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fixed now -- Reds
Plus you can always add some Mets, Padres, Giants, Marlins, D-backs, Dodgers hatred.
Fat Bastard is an immensely obese, hardly able to walk (weighing a metric ton) gardener and henchman hailing from Scotland. His extreme size endows Fat Bastard with super-human strength as exhibited by his prowess in the Sumo ring from Goldmember. This makes him a formidable enemy for Austin Powers. Fat Bastard is noted for his foul temper, his frequent flatulence, his vulgar and revolting bad manners and his unusual eating habits, which include taste for Human infants (which he calls "the other other white meat") or anything that looks like a baby, e.g. small people. Fat Bastard has been a regular at Cub games since the early 80's when he tried several times (unsuccessfully) to eat the visiting San Diego Chicken.
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<!--quoteo(post=79428:date=Feb 12 2010, 12:16 PM:name=MW4)-->QUOTE (MW4 @ Feb 12 2010, 12:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=79400:date=Feb 11 2010, 10:01 PM:name=VanSlawAndCottoCheese)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VanSlawAndCottoCheese @ Feb 11 2010, 10:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=79399:date=Feb 12 2010, 12:44 AM:name=MW4)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MW4 @ Feb 12 2010, 12:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I'm a Cub Fan, and a Bud Man.
Hated Harry when he was with the Sox, and LOVED him as a Cubbie.
I'm defending Sammy and cheering on an investigation of Pujols even if they both juiced.
I'm no different than the legions of San Francisco Bonds Lovers (including Mays.)
I hate anything Cardinal, Brewer, Asstroll, Pirate, Red and White Soxian.
No logic just Love (and Hate)<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why the Pirates and Red Sox hate? And hey, I love me some irrational fan Kool-Aid gulping too. But not Bud. Lord, no, not Bud.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fixed now -- Reds
Plus you can always add some Mets, Padres, Giants, Marlins, D-backs, Dodgers hatred.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like where this is going.
One dick can poke an eye out. A hundred dicks can move mountains.
--Veryzer
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<!--quoteo(post=79400:date=Feb 11 2010, 11:01 PM:name=VanSlawAndCottoCheese)-->QUOTE (VanSlawAndCottoCheese @ Feb 11 2010, 11:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=79399:date=Feb 12 2010, 12:44 AM:name=MW4)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MW4 @ Feb 12 2010, 12:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I'm a Cub Fan, and a Bud Man.
Hated Harry when he was with the Sox, and LOVED him as a Cubbie.
I'm defending Sammy and cheering on an investigation of Pujols even if they both juiced.
I'm no different than the legions of San Francisco Bonds Lovers (including Mays.)
I hate anything Cardinal, Brewer, Asstroll, Pirate, Red and White Soxian.
No logic just Love (and Hate)<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why the Pirates and Red Sox hate? And hey, I love me some irrational fan Kool-Aid gulping too. But not Bud. Lord, no, not Bud.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've loved the Pirates since the early 90s. Free wins.
And Bud's the king of beers.
@TheBlogfines
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<!--quoteo(post=79402:date=Feb 12 2010, 01:11 AM:name=VanSlawAndCottoCheese)-->QUOTE (VanSlawAndCottoCheese @ Feb 12 2010, 01:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><b>WARNING! SAPPY SENTIMENT IMMINENT!</b>
One thing I love about this place is that I get to have debates on the internet that don't feel pointless or vapid or simply the result of the vindictive mashing of keys. I love disagreeing with smart people and talking through it. I always get a little smarter by the debate's end.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
[img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/emu.gif[/img]
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Willie was interviewed on NPR this afternoon. He's not even angry about racism. I wouldn't read too much into him not being mad at Barry.
And Slaw, hand me that towel, would ya?
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<!--quoteo(post=79432:date=Feb 12 2010, 11:18 AM:name=VanSlawAndCottoCheese)-->QUOTE (VanSlawAndCottoCheese @ Feb 12 2010, 11:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=79428:date=Feb 12 2010, 12:16 PM:name=MW4)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MW4 @ Feb 12 2010, 12:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=79400:date=Feb 11 2010, 10:01 PM:name=VanSlawAndCottoCheese)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VanSlawAndCottoCheese @ Feb 11 2010, 10:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=79399:date=Feb 12 2010, 12:44 AM:name=MW4)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MW4 @ Feb 12 2010, 12:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I'm a Cub Fan, and a Bud Man.
Hated Harry when he was with the Sox, and LOVED him as a Cubbie.
I'm defending Sammy and cheering on an investigation of Pujols even if they both juiced.
I'm no different than the legions of San Francisco Bonds Lovers (including Mays.)
I hate anything Cardinal, Brewer, Asstroll, Pirate, Red and White Soxian.
No logic just Love (and Hate)<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why the Pirates and Red Sox hate? And hey, I love me some irrational fan Kool-Aid gulping too. But not Bud. Lord, no, not Bud.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fixed now -- Reds
Plus you can always add some Mets, Padres, Giants, Marlins, D-backs, Dodgers hatred.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like where this is going.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i wouldn't take out the red sox. fuck the red sox. i hated them. they were never like the cubs and never will be. f boston.
"If you throw at someone's head, it's very dangerous, because in the head is the brain." -- Pudge Rodriguez to AM 1270 WXYT in Detroit
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