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<!--quoteo(post=79293:date=Feb 11 2010, 01:13 PM:name=KBwsb)-->QUOTE (KBwsb @ Feb 11 2010, 01:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Palmeiro was more than a "contact hitter," even when on the Cubs.
In his last year on the Cubs, as a 23 year-old, he was an All-Star, and finished 2nd in the league in hitting (to Tony Gwynn). That's not the type of guy you trade away.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How does a guy finishing second in AVERAGE disprove he was a "contact hitter"?
And he shouldn't have been an all star. At the time of the game, he was hitting .311 with 6 home runs, and less than 30 RBI. He was good, but there was no reason to think he was going to be a power hitting freak.
I wish that I believed in Fate. I wish I didn't sleep so late. I used to be carried in the arms of cheerleaders.
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<!--quoteo(post=79293:date=Feb 11 2010, 01:13 PM:name=KBwsb)-->QUOTE (KBwsb @ Feb 11 2010, 01:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Palmeiro was more than a "contact hitter," even when on the Cubs.
In his last year on the Cubs, as a 23 year-old, he was an All-Star, and finished 2nd in the league in hitting (to Tony Gwynn). That's not the type of guy you trade away.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A guy could get killed for saying this kind of stuff out loud...
I hated the trade at the time, and never understood the Mitch Williams fascination. Whether or not he was "expendable", it always seemed like we got reamed on that one.
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<!--quoteo(post=79297:date=Feb 11 2010, 01:23 PM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Feb 11 2010, 01:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=79293:date=Feb 11 2010, 01:13 PM:name=KBwsb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KBwsb @ Feb 11 2010, 01:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Palmeiro was more than a "contact hitter," even when on the Cubs.
In his last year on the Cubs, as a 23 year-old, he was an All-Star, and finished 2nd in the league in hitting (to Tony Gwynn). That's not the type of guy you trade away.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How does a guy finishing second in AVERAGE disprove he was a "contact hitter"?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I didn't explain myself properly. I was referring to a couple of posts that seemed to imply that "contact hitter" was a type of guy that you'd bat 8th, who was scrawny and hit .250.
Palmeiro was a big guy who could play the OF (thus letting Grace play 1st), and who, in his first year as a regular, quickly became one of the league's best hitters. Plus, all this was in 1988, a full year before Dwight and Jerome would come up to start in the Cub's OF.
So it's pretty odd that he'd be trade bait.
There's nothing better than to realize that the good things about youth don't end with youth itself. It's a matter of realizing that life can be renewed every day you get out of bed without baggage. It's tough to get there, but it's better than the dark thoughts. -Lance
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<!--quoteo(post=79293:date=Feb 11 2010, 02:13 PM:name=KBwsb)-->QUOTE (KBwsb @ Feb 11 2010, 02:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Palmeiro was more than a "contact hitter," even when on the Cubs.
In his last year on the Cubs, as a 23 year-old, he was an All-Star, and finished 2nd in the league in hitting (to Tony Gwynn). That's not the type of guy you trade away.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Jim Hendry's fault, perhaps?
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<!--quoteo(post=79303:date=Feb 11 2010, 02:10 PM:name=Dirk)-->QUOTE (Dirk @ Feb 11 2010, 02:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=79293:date=Feb 11 2010, 02:13 PM:name=KBwsb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KBwsb @ Feb 11 2010, 02:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Palmeiro was more than a "contact hitter," even when on the Cubs.
In his last year on the Cubs, as a 23 year-old, he was an All-Star, and finished 2nd in the league in hitting (to Tony Gwynn). That's not the type of guy you trade away.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Jim Hendry's fault, perhaps?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
[img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif[/img]
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<!--quoteo(post=79303:date=Feb 11 2010, 02:10 PM:name=Dirk)-->QUOTE (Dirk @ Feb 11 2010, 02:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=79293:date=Feb 11 2010, 02:13 PM:name=KBwsb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KBwsb @ Feb 11 2010, 02:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Palmeiro was more than a "contact hitter," even when on the Cubs.
In his last year on the Cubs, as a 23 year-old, he was an All-Star, and finished 2nd in the league in hitting (to Tony Gwynn). That's not the type of guy you trade away.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Jim Hendry's fault, perhaps?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ace? Is that you, boy?
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<!--quoteo(post=79292:date=Feb 11 2010, 01:12 PM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Feb 11 2010, 01:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=79291:date=Feb 11 2010, 01:04 PM:name=rok)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rok @ Feb 11 2010, 01:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Palmeiro didn't start to demonstrate much power until 1991, though his doubles totals shot up between 1988-90. You'd have thought that someone in the organization could have foreseen a jump in slugging eventually for him.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why? Mark Grace showed doubles power, but that wasn't indicative of a future home run surge. I think if you are making up a list of "guys whose power surges were foreseeable", Palmeiro, McGwire and Sosa should rank pretty far down on that list.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not saying it was a given, but at the time I remember he started to turn on the ball more and more. Grace, on the other hand, was always the same type of hitter, unless I'm just remembering wrong. Look, I wanted to keep Grace at the time too. He was one of my favorite players. I just thought that we gave up on Palmeiro too quickly, that's all. But as I also said in that post, Palmeiro didn't start to show serious power until 1991, so it was probably a matter of time before we traded him regardless.
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I was a junior in high school at the time of the trade. I remember being angry that the Cubs traded Palmiero et al for Williams et al. But that's how remember the deal: the Cubs weren't bailing on Palmiero, they were trading talent for a closer (brilliant). They had gotten Gossage the year before and the Goose laid an egg.
Hmm, I also was happy they sent Moyer along in the deal, even though he had a solid 1988. I just developed an early impression that he would be a stiff. I never would have guessed that the dude would pitch until he became a stiff.
Oh, and here's an article in which Palmiero bashed the trade almost 15 years later.
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Palmerio would have been an average player if he wasn't juicing his entire career.
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<!--quoteo(post=79390:date=Feb 11 2010, 10:24 PM:name=Croz)-->QUOTE (Croz @ Feb 11 2010, 10:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Palmerio would have been an average player if he wasn't juicing his entire career.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would guess that he didn't start juicing until Canseco got to Texas, in mid-1992. In the years prior to that, Palmeiro was <b>way</b> above average (2-time All-Star, led the league in doubles one year, in hits another year, had an OPS+ of 155 one year...he was pretty good).
He wasn't a serious power hitter, but he was a lot more valuable than an insane closer.
There's nothing better than to realize that the good things about youth don't end with youth itself. It's a matter of realizing that life can be renewed every day you get out of bed without baggage. It's tough to get there, but it's better than the dark thoughts. -Lance
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<!--quoteo(post=79423:date=Feb 12 2010, 09:57 AM:name=KBwsb)-->QUOTE (KBwsb @ Feb 12 2010, 09:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=79390:date=Feb 11 2010, 10:24 PM:name=Croz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Croz @ Feb 11 2010, 10:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Palmerio would have been an average player if he wasn't juicing his entire career.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would guess that he didn't start juicing until Canseco got to Texas, in mid-1992. In the years prior to that, Palmeiro was <b>way</b> above average (2-time All-Star, led the league in doubles one year, in hits another year, had an OPS+ of 155 one year...he was pretty good).
He wasn't a serious power hitter, but he was a lot more valuable than an insane closer.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
we would not have made the playoffs in '89 if we didn't make that trade. We didn't have a closer, and Palmeiro would not have contributed significantly more than Walton, Smith, Dawson or Grace. Back in '89, making the playoffs was a BIG deal.
I wish that I believed in Fate. I wish I didn't sleep so late. I used to be carried in the arms of cheerleaders.
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Had we not ignorantly traded Lee Smith for Calvin Schiraldi, we wouldn't have needed a closer. The only acceptable reason for Palmero being traded was that he was indeed banging Cindi Sandberg.
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<!--quoteo(post=79453:date=Feb 12 2010, 03:33 PM:name=savant)-->QUOTE (savant @ Feb 12 2010, 03:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Had we not ignorantly traded Lee Smith for Calvin Schiraldi, we wouldn't have needed a closer. The only acceptable reason for Palmero being traded was that he was indeed banging Cindi Sandberg.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Schiraldi is still probably my most despised former Cub of all time for many reasons. What a whiny, worthless little bitch, and an assface.
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<!--quoteo(post=79453:date=Feb 12 2010, 03:33 PM:name=savant)-->QUOTE (savant @ Feb 12 2010, 03:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Had we not ignorantly traded Lee Smith for Calvin Schiraldi, we wouldn't have needed a closer. The only acceptable reason for Palmero being traded was that he was indeed banging Cindi Sandberg.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A buddy of mine and me once charted this out. I can't remember the specifics, but the Lee Smith trade was one of the most damaging trades in cubs history. It begat so many bad roster moves, years down the line, it was unbelievable.
I wish that I believed in Fate. I wish I didn't sleep so late. I used to be carried in the arms of cheerleaders.
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Aren't we totally dissing Al Nipper here? His 0.79 K/BB ratio was part of that sweet swag too.
One dick can poke an eye out. A hundred dicks can move mountains.
--Veryzer
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