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<!--quoteo(post=92109:date=Apr 22 2010, 12:59 PM:name=Scarey)-->QUOTE (Scarey @ Apr 22 2010, 12:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=92107:date=Apr 22 2010, 12:58 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Apr 22 2010, 12:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->The issue of whether or not Z will be a good 8th inning guy is completely beside the point. It doesn't matter if he's lights out or not. He's proven himself year after year to be a top-shelf starting pitcher. He's a guy you give 200 innings to -- not 60 innings. I don't know how anyone can disagree with this.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'll put money on the fact that Zambrano will pitch more than 100 innings this year.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That isn't saying much.
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Anything under 180 would piss me off.
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<!--quoteo(post=92094:date=Apr 22 2010, 12:45 PM:name=ruby23)-->QUOTE (ruby23 @ Apr 22 2010, 12:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Just so we have this straight, when the Tribune sold the Cubs, the new management decided to keep BT on the staff. That's pretty much all I've learned from this thread.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So the fact that I said I wouldn't put Z in the pen doesn't matter, just the fact that I'm not freaking out about it to the proper degree, makes me pro-management?
You turned me around Ruby.
FIRE LOU! FIRE WILKIN FIRE HENDRY! THIS TEAM IS DOOMED! DOOOOOOOMED I TELLS YA! THIS IS A MISTAKE OF SUCH EPIC PROPORTIONS, MEMBERS OF LOU'S FAMILY SHOULD BE HARMED! WE CANNOT RECOVER FROM THIS! TRADE LEE! TRADE ARAM! KICK SORIANO IN THE BALLS! MURDER SILVA BEFORE HE CAN SUCK! FRAME GORZELANY FOR THAT MURDER! BRING UP CASTRO! BRING UP CASHNER (we should, however, start another thread to decide if he should start or relieve)!
also
FIRE WHOMEVER THE NEXT MANAGER IS AS SOON AS WE HAVE A LOSING SEASON (or a season that we don't make the playoffs)! FIRE THE NEXT GM AND SCOUTING DIRECTOR AS SOON AS A GUY THAT WE DIDN'T DRAFT MAKES THE PROS!
do I fit in now?
I wish that I believed in Fate. I wish I didn't sleep so late. I used to be carried in the arms of cheerleaders.
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<!--quoteo(post=92108:date=Apr 22 2010, 12:59 PM:name=jeffy)-->QUOTE (jeffy @ Apr 22 2010, 12:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Yes, but those are his numbers as a starter. Coming onto the mound fresh out of the pen with runners on can be different than having runners on after you're already settled in. It just depends on the pitcher. We'll just have to see how he handles it.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is different, of course. But are you saying it's harder to try to clean up someone else's mess compared to your own?
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<!--quoteo(post=92113:date=Apr 22 2010, 01:02 PM:name=Scarey)-->QUOTE (Scarey @ Apr 22 2010, 01:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=92108:date=Apr 22 2010, 12:59 PM:name=jeffy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jeffy @ Apr 22 2010, 12:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Yes, but those are his numbers as a starter. Coming onto the mound fresh out of the pen with runners on can be different than having runners on after you're already settled in. It just depends on the pitcher. We'll just have to see how he handles it.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is different, of course. But are you saying it's harder to try to clean up someone else's mess compared to your own?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That was more my point. Z has been known to react adversely to other players' mistakes, so I am concerned about this aspect of being a setup man, coming in to put out fires. I just wish we never had to have this discussion in the first place.
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I worry about what a few disastrous relief appearances could do to Z's wacky head. The numbers may say that if Lou wants to do this, Z is the guy to do it with but I don't think Z is a by-the-numbers guy. This is risky.
Remember the suicide squeeze war? Some of us maintain that the wrong move is the wrong move, even the one time in ten that it works.
I'll breath a sigh of relief if Z spends a few weeks in the pen, doesn't blow, we trade for or bring up someone to fill that role and Z get's stretched back out and is effective again starting. That just seems like a lot to hope for.
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<!--quoteo(post=92114:date=Apr 22 2010, 12:04 PM:name=rok)-->QUOTE (rok @ Apr 22 2010, 12:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=92113:date=Apr 22 2010, 01:02 PM:name=Scarey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Scarey @ Apr 22 2010, 01:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=92108:date=Apr 22 2010, 12:59 PM:name=jeffy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jeffy @ Apr 22 2010, 12:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Yes, but those are his numbers as a starter. Coming onto the mound fresh out of the pen with runners on can be different than having runners on after you're already settled in. It just depends on the pitcher. We'll just have to see how he handles it.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is different, of course. But are you saying it's harder to try to clean up someone else's mess compared to your own?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That was more my point. Z has been known to react adversely to other players' mistakes, so I am concerned about this aspect of being a setup man, coming in to put out fires. I just wish we never had to have this discussion in the first place.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well said.
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Scarey:
Better for the pen: Zambrano or Cashner?
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<!--quoteo(post=92114:date=Apr 22 2010, 01:04 PM:name=rok)-->QUOTE (rok @ Apr 22 2010, 01:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=92113:date=Apr 22 2010, 01:02 PM:name=Scarey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Scarey @ Apr 22 2010, 01:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=92108:date=Apr 22 2010, 12:59 PM:name=jeffy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jeffy @ Apr 22 2010, 12:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Yes, but those are his numbers as a starter. Coming onto the mound fresh out of the pen with runners on can be different than having runners on after you're already settled in. It just depends on the pitcher. We'll just have to see how he handles it.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is different, of course. But are you saying it's harder to try to clean up someone else's mess compared to your own?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That was more my point. Z has been known to react adversely to other players' mistakes, so I am concerned about this aspect of being a setup man, coming in to put out fires. I just wish we never had to have this discussion in the first place.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So, you think he'll be yelling and waving his fists around while he's warming up and the pitcher before him is giving up base hits? I almost hope that happens. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif[/img]
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<!--quoteo(post=92118:date=Apr 22 2010, 01:09 PM:name=Coach)-->QUOTE (Coach @ Apr 22 2010, 01:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Scarey:
Better for the pen: Zambrano or Cashner?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Cashner.
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<!--quoteo(post=92112:date=Apr 22 2010, 01:01 PM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Apr 22 2010, 01:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=92094:date=Apr 22 2010, 12:45 PM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Apr 22 2010, 12:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Just so we have this straight, when the Tribune sold the Cubs, the new management decided to keep BT on the staff. That's pretty much all I've learned from this thread.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So the fact that I said I wouldn't put Z in the pen doesn't matter, just the fact that I'm not freaking out about it to the proper degree, makes me pro-management?
You turned me around Ruby.
FIRE LOU! FIRE WILKIN FIRE HENDRY! THIS TEAM IS DOOMED! DOOOOOOOMED I TELLS YA! THIS IS A MISTAKE OF SUCH EPIC PROPORTIONS, MEMBERS OF LOU'S FAMILY SHOULD BE HARMED! WE CANNOT RECOVER FROM THIS! TRADE LEE! TRADE ARAM! KICK SORIANO IN THE BALLS! MURDER SILVA BEFORE HE CAN SUCK! FRAME GORZELANY FOR THAT MURDER! BRING UP CASTRO! BRING UP CASHNER (we should, however, start another thread to decide if he should start or relieve)!
also
FIRE WHOMEVER THE NEXT MANAGER IS AS SOON AS WE HAVE A LOSING SEASON (or a season that we don't make the playoffs)! FIRE THE NEXT GM AND SCOUTING DIRECTOR AS SOON AS A GUY THAT WE DIDN'T DRAFT MAKES THE PROS!
do I fit in now?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, being pro-management on every issue makes you pro-management. That's the way it's always been buckeroo.
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<!--quoteo(post=92121:date=Apr 22 2010, 01:11 PM:name=ruby23)-->QUOTE (ruby23 @ Apr 22 2010, 01:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=92112:date=Apr 22 2010, 01:01 PM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Apr 22 2010, 01:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=92094:date=Apr 22 2010, 12:45 PM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Apr 22 2010, 12:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Just so we have this straight, when the Tribune sold the Cubs, the new management decided to keep BT on the staff. That's pretty much all I've learned from this thread.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So the fact that I said I wouldn't put Z in the pen doesn't matter, just the fact that I'm not freaking out about it to the proper degree, makes me pro-management?
You turned me around Ruby.
FIRE LOU! FIRE WILKIN FIRE HENDRY! THIS TEAM IS DOOMED! DOOOOOOOMED I TELLS YA! THIS IS A MISTAKE OF SUCH EPIC PROPORTIONS, MEMBERS OF LOU'S FAMILY SHOULD BE HARMED! WE CANNOT RECOVER FROM THIS! TRADE LEE! TRADE ARAM! KICK SORIANO IN THE BALLS! MURDER SILVA BEFORE HE CAN SUCK! FRAME GORZELANY FOR THAT MURDER! BRING UP CASTRO! BRING UP CASHNER (we should, however, start another thread to decide if he should start or relieve)!
also
FIRE WHOMEVER THE NEXT MANAGER IS AS SOON AS WE HAVE A LOSING SEASON (or a season that we don't make the playoffs)! FIRE THE NEXT GM AND SCOUTING DIRECTOR AS SOON AS A GUY THAT WE DIDN'T DRAFT MAKES THE PROS!
do I fit in now?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, being pro-management on every issue makes you pro-management. That's the way it's always been buckeroo.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Explain how I'm Pro-management on this? Is saying management is not a bunch of drooling fucking morons the same thing as being pro-management?
I'll say this again, so maybe you will understand, I don't think this is the right move. I simply don't think it's as indefensible as everyone on here is making it.
I wish that I believed in Fate. I wish I didn't sleep so late. I used to be carried in the arms of cheerleaders.
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<!--quoteo(post=92119:date=Apr 22 2010, 01:10 PM:name=Scarey)-->QUOTE (Scarey @ Apr 22 2010, 01:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=92114:date=Apr 22 2010, 01:04 PM:name=rok)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rok @ Apr 22 2010, 01:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=92113:date=Apr 22 2010, 01:02 PM:name=Scarey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Scarey @ Apr 22 2010, 01:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=92108:date=Apr 22 2010, 12:59 PM:name=jeffy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jeffy @ Apr 22 2010, 12:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Yes, but those are his numbers as a starter. Coming onto the mound fresh out of the pen with runners on can be different than having runners on after you're already settled in. It just depends on the pitcher. We'll just have to see how he handles it.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is different, of course. But are you saying it's harder to try to clean up someone else's mess compared to your own?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That was more my point. Z has been known to react adversely to other players' mistakes, so I am concerned about this aspect of being a setup man, coming in to put out fires. I just wish we never had to have this discussion in the first place.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So, you think he'll be yelling and waving his fists around while he's warming up and the pitcher before him is giving up base hits? I almost hope that happens. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif[/img]
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No.
But, I do think that the first time he allows an inherited runner to score and is questioned about it, his answer to Lou or the media and the reaction with his teammates may be less than humble. For a guy with his ego inheriting situations that are not of his doing, and then having to answer why he threw a certain pitch etc etc might cause a rift with his teammates and get into his head. It's already too crowded in there as is.
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<!--quoteo(post=92122:date=Apr 22 2010, 01:13 PM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Apr 22 2010, 01:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=92121:date=Apr 22 2010, 01:11 PM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Apr 22 2010, 01:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=92112:date=Apr 22 2010, 01:01 PM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Apr 22 2010, 01:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=92094:date=Apr 22 2010, 12:45 PM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Apr 22 2010, 12:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Just so we have this straight, when the Tribune sold the Cubs, the new management decided to keep BT on the staff. That's pretty much all I've learned from this thread.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So the fact that I said I wouldn't put Z in the pen doesn't matter, just the fact that I'm not freaking out about it to the proper degree, makes me pro-management?
You turned me around Ruby.
FIRE LOU! FIRE WILKIN FIRE HENDRY! THIS TEAM IS DOOMED! DOOOOOOOMED I TELLS YA! THIS IS A MISTAKE OF SUCH EPIC PROPORTIONS, MEMBERS OF LOU'S FAMILY SHOULD BE HARMED! WE CANNOT RECOVER FROM THIS! TRADE LEE! TRADE ARAM! KICK SORIANO IN THE BALLS! MURDER SILVA BEFORE HE CAN SUCK! FRAME GORZELANY FOR THAT MURDER! BRING UP CASTRO! BRING UP CASHNER (we should, however, start another thread to decide if he should start or relieve)!
also
FIRE WHOMEVER THE NEXT MANAGER IS AS SOON AS WE HAVE A LOSING SEASON (or a season that we don't make the playoffs)! FIRE THE NEXT GM AND SCOUTING DIRECTOR AS SOON AS A GUY THAT WE DIDN'T DRAFT MAKES THE PROS!
do I fit in now?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, being pro-management on every issue makes you pro-management. That's the way it's always been buckeroo.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Explain how I'm Pro-management on this? Is saying management is not a bunch of drooling fucking morons the same thing as being pro-management?
I'll say this again, so maybe you will understand, I don't think this is the right move. I simply don't think it's as indefensible as everyone on here is making it.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Trying for even one second to rationalize it is indefensible.
And for the record, I generally agree with you that things get blown way out of proportion here, but this not one of those times. Not even close.
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<!--quoteo(post=91975:date=Apr 21 2010, 08:39 PM:name=mindbodyspirit)-->QUOTE (mindbodyspirit @ Apr 21 2010, 08:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->This move is in all likelihood a very short-term move, and it makes the most sense of any of the moves they could have made. Gorzelanny wasn't a very good reliever (much like Jason Marquis), and Silva is in that same mold. Dempster was moved back into the rotation because he wans't consistent in high-stress, short appearances. Wells is too young and too successful to move to the pen. Lilly is returning to start. That leaves Zambrano. If he's OK'ed it, he proabably understands it's a short-term deal to help the team win... and good for him. Not a lot of $90M players would take one for the team quietly.
Lou hasn't lost his senses, he's doing the best he can to get his dreadfully underachieving team to win some games. I'm glad he did something to try to stimulate a few wins.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with this. It was surprising news particularly after Z's last start, but it's not that insane.
I'm not saying that it's going to work, but in theory facing a guy like Lilly or Dempster for 6 or 7 innings and then having to face Z for 1 or 2, and then Marmol is pretty daunting. My worries about this have less to do with the idea and more to do with Z's ability to handle the role. Walks kill Z, and batters tend to be more selective late in the game. If he can't adjust to that, the whole thing will fail.
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