Not to pick on Dusty, but...

[phan]

I don't see how you can say that sleeping at first base and getting picked off isn't a boneheaded play.

it's one thing to get picked off leaning because you're trying to steal 2nd but if you're not paying attention and get picked off it's a bonehead mental mistake.

[veryzer]

<!--quoteo(post=94421:date=May 3 2010, 02:24 PM:name=phan)-->QUOTE (phan @ May 3 2010, 02:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I don't see how you can say that sleeping at first base and getting picked off isn't a boneheaded play.

it's one thing to get picked off leaning because you're trying to steal 2nd but if you're not paying attention and get picked off it's a bonehead mental mistake.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


Of course it is. I think getting picked off because you're leaning is boneheaded too, but I won't push that one.

[jstraw]

<!--quoteo(post=94421:date=May 3 2010, 02:24 PM:name=phan)-->QUOTE (phan @ May 3 2010, 02:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I don't see how you can say that sleeping at first base and getting picked off isn't a boneheaded play.

it's one thing to get picked off leaning because you're trying to steal 2nd but if you're not paying attention and get picked off it's a bonehead mental mistake.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I don't think anyone is arguing that getting caught sleeping isn't boneheaded. Tommy was saying that getting caught out at first is always boneheaded. He's wrong. It's about risk assessment. It's about aggressive play. If you fancy yourself a base stealer and you never ever get caught taking too big a lead or misjudging a pitcher's move to first you're not pushing the envelope and probably stealing fewer bases than you could be.

[kbwsb]

<!--quoteo(post=94435:date=May 3 2010, 03:00 PM:name=jstraw)-->QUOTE (jstraw @ May 3 2010, 03:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=94421:date=May 3 2010, 02:24 PM:name=phan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (phan @ May 3 2010, 02:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I don't see how you can say that sleeping at first base and getting picked off isn't a boneheaded play.
it's one thing to get picked off leaning because you're trying to steal 2nd but if you're not paying attention and get picked off it's a bonehead mental mistake.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think anyone is arguing that getting caught sleeping isn't boneheaded. Tommy was saying that getting caught out at first is always boneheaded. He's wrong. It's about risk assessment. It's about aggressive play. If you fancy yourself a base stealer and you never ever get caught taking too big a lead or misjudging a pitcher's move to first you're not pushing the envelope and probably stealing fewer bases than you could be.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
See, I disagree.
When a guy reaches the majors, he has been on 1st base thousands of times in his life. He has taken thousands of leads. Triple-A guys are just as crafty as MLB guys, maybe more so since they have to really on their wits and guile in lieu of a lack of superior talent.

So if you're a MLB player and get caught napping at first, you've made a serious, stupid blunder. It's not about taking a big lead. You think Rickey Henderson and Lou Brock got picked off all the time? Of course not, and they took massive leads.

I would like to see a stat that shows how often "smart" ballplayers (Jeter, Pujols, DLee) get picked off, and how often guys who act like space cadets get picked off.

Anyone want to guess which group of guys I believe would get picked off more often?
It's a mental mistake, usually.

[jstraw]

<!--quoteo(post=94439:date=May 3 2010, 03:07 PM:name=KBwsb)-->QUOTE (KBwsb @ May 3 2010, 03:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=94435:date=May 3 2010, 03:00 PM:name=jstraw)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jstraw @ May 3 2010, 03:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=94421:date=May 3 2010, 02:24 PM:name=phan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (phan @ May 3 2010, 02:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I don't see how you can say that sleeping at first base and getting picked off isn't a boneheaded play.
it's one thing to get picked off leaning because you're trying to steal 2nd but if you're not paying attention and get picked off it's a bonehead mental mistake.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think anyone is arguing that getting caught sleeping isn't boneheaded. Tommy was saying that getting caught out at first is always boneheaded. He's wrong. It's about risk assessment. It's about aggressive play. If you fancy yourself a base stealer and you never ever get caught taking too big a lead or misjudging a pitcher's move to first you're not pushing the envelope and probably stealing fewer bases than you could be.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
See, I disagree.
When a guy reaches the majors, he has been on 1st base thousands of times in his life. He has taken thousands of leads. Triple-A guys are just as crafty as MLB guys, maybe more so since they have to really on their wits and guile in lieu of a lack of superior talent.

So if you're a MLB player and get caught napping at first, you've made a serious, stupid blunder. It's not about taking a big lead. You think Rickey Henderson and Lou Brock got picked off all the time? Of course not, and they took massive leads.

I would like to see a stat that shows how often "smart" ballplayers (Jeter, Pujols, DLee) get picked off, and how often guys who act like space cadets get picked off.

Anyone want to guess which group of guys I believe would get picked off more often?
It's a mental mistake, usually.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


I haven't found pickoff numbers yet but Rickey holds the record for most times caught stealing in a season.

[jstraw]

In Henderson's record-setting year (130 in 1982) he was caught stealing 42 times. He was picked off or caught in a run-down 14 times.

[kbwsb]

<!--quoteo(post=94447:date=May 3 2010, 04:15 PM:name=jstraw)-->QUOTE (jstraw @ May 3 2010, 04:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->In Henderson's record-setting year (130 in 1982) he was caught stealing 42 times. He was picked off or caught in a run-down 14 times.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd say that a guy who steals 130 bases is basically running wild, no? Like, in a way that absolutely nobody in history has ever done.

<b>Question</b>: do you guys actually think that guys who get picked off first are NEVER caught napping?
-That they're all extremely heads-up ballplayers who are simply physically incapable of getting back to first base all the time?
-That it's 100% a skill, and some guys just don't have the physical skill?
-That unlike other parts of the game, where there is blatant evidence of a player who's head is in the clouds (throwing the ball in the stands with only 2 outs, etc.) , these type of players <i>never</i> make mental mistakes when on first base?

Is that the line of reasoning?

[Giff]

<!--quoteo(post=94464:date=May 3 2010, 05:44 PM:name=KBwsb)-->QUOTE (KBwsb @ May 3 2010, 05:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=94447:date=May 3 2010, 04:15 PM:name=jstraw)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jstraw @ May 3 2010, 04:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->In Henderson's record-setting year (130 in 1982) he was caught stealing 42 times. He was picked off or caught in a run-down 14 times.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd say that a guy who steals 130 bases is basically running wild, no? Like, in a way that absolutely nobody in history has ever done.

<b>Question</b>: do you guys actually think that guys who get picked off first are NEVER caught napping?
-That they're all extremely heads-up ballplayers who are simply physically incapable of getting back to first base all the time?
-That it's 100% a skill, and some guys just don't have the physical skill?
-That unlike other parts of the game, where there is blatant evidence of a player who's head is in the clouds (throwing the ball in the stands with only 2 outs, etc.) , these type of players <i>never</i> make mental mistakes when on first base?

Is that the line of reasoning?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dude, there isn't anybody saying guys never get caught napping, nor is there anyone saying that when someone gets caught napping it isn't a mental mistake. The point is, a lot of the time, when someone gets picked off, it's because they're leaning towards second trying to get a better jump in order to steal second. And that isn't a mental mistake.

[kbwsb]

<!--quoteo(post=94467:date=May 3 2010, 05:56 PM:name=Giff)-->QUOTE (Giff @ May 3 2010, 05:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=94464:date=May 3 2010, 05:44 PM:name=KBwsb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KBwsb @ May 3 2010, 05:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=94447:date=May 3 2010, 04:15 PM:name=jstraw)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jstraw @ May 3 2010, 04:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->In Henderson's record-setting year (130 in 1982) he was caught stealing 42 times. He was picked off or caught in a run-down 14 times.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd say that a guy who steals 130 bases is basically running wild, no? Like, in a way that absolutely nobody in history has ever done.

<b>Question</b>: do you guys actually think that guys who get picked off first are NEVER caught napping?
-That they're all extremely heads-up ballplayers who are simply physically incapable of getting back to first base all the time?
-That it's 100% a skill, and some guys just don't have the physical skill?
-That unlike other parts of the game, where there is blatant evidence of a player who's head is in the clouds (throwing the ball in the stands with only 2 outs, etc.) , these type of players <i>never</i> make mental mistakes when on first base?

Is that the line of reasoning?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dude, there isn't anybody saying guys never get caught napping, nor is there anyone saying that when someone gets caught napping it isn't a mental mistake. The point is, a lot of the time, when someone gets picked off, it's because they're leaning towards second trying to get a better jump in order to steal second. And that isn't a mental mistake.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, of course I agree with that. That's obvious.
But even in the situation you described, depending on the circumstances, it can be a mental error. There are many times in a game when having a runner on base is hugely important, and the player should not be taking <i>any</i> risk.

[Destined]

<!--quoteo(post=94467:date=May 3 2010, 03:56 PM:name=Giff)-->QUOTE (Giff @ May 3 2010, 03:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=94464:date=May 3 2010, 05:44 PM:name=KBwsb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KBwsb @ May 3 2010, 05:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=94447:date=May 3 2010, 04:15 PM:name=jstraw)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jstraw @ May 3 2010, 04:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->In Henderson's record-setting year (130 in 1982) he was caught stealing 42 times. He was picked off or caught in a run-down 14 times.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd say that a guy who steals 130 bases is basically running wild, no? Like, in a way that absolutely nobody in history has ever done.

<b>Question</b>: do you guys actually think that guys who get picked off first are NEVER caught napping?
-That they're all extremely heads-up ballplayers who are simply physically incapable of getting back to first base all the time?
-That it's 100% a skill, and some guys just don't have the physical skill?
-That unlike other parts of the game, where there is blatant evidence of a player who's head is in the clouds (throwing the ball in the stands with only 2 outs, etc.) , these type of players <i>never</i> make mental mistakes when on first base?

Is that the line of reasoning?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dude, there isn't anybody saying guys never get caught napping, nor is there anyone saying that when someone gets caught napping it isn't a mental mistake. The point is, a lot of the time, when someone gets picked off, it's because they're leaning towards second trying to get a better jump in order to steal second. And that isn't a mental mistake.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bingo.

[jstraw]

<!--quoteo(post=94472:date=May 3 2010, 06:19 PM:name=KBwsb)-->QUOTE (KBwsb @ May 3 2010, 06:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=94467:date=May 3 2010, 05:56 PM:name=Giff)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Giff @ May 3 2010, 05:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=94464:date=May 3 2010, 05:44 PM:name=KBwsb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KBwsb @ May 3 2010, 05:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=94447:date=May 3 2010, 04:15 PM:name=jstraw)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jstraw @ May 3 2010, 04:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->In Henderson's record-setting year (130 in 1982) he was caught stealing 42 times. He was picked off or caught in a run-down 14 times.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd say that a guy who steals 130 bases is basically running wild, no? Like, in a way that absolutely nobody in history has ever done.

<b>Question</b>: do you guys actually think that guys who get picked off first are NEVER caught napping?
-That they're all extremely heads-up ballplayers who are simply physically incapable of getting back to first base all the time?
-That it's 100% a skill, and some guys just don't have the physical skill?
-That unlike other parts of the game, where there is blatant evidence of a player who's head is in the clouds (throwing the ball in the stands with only 2 outs, etc.) , these type of players <i>never</i> make mental mistakes when on first base?

Is that the line of reasoning?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dude, there isn't anybody saying guys never get caught napping, nor is there anyone saying that when someone gets caught napping it isn't a mental mistake. The point is, a lot of the time, when someone gets picked off, it's because they're leaning towards second trying to get a better jump in order to steal second. And that isn't a mental mistake.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, of course I agree with that. That's obvious.
But even in the situation you described, depending on the circumstances, it can be a mental error. There are many times in a game when having a runner on base is hugely important, and the player should not be taking <i>any</i> risk.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

That's what coaches and managers are for. If a guy has the green light, that's a managing decision. Yes, of course guys get caught being stupid but the argument that I'm having with Tommy is over whether or not every guy picked off is guilty of a mental error. he says yes and I say no. It's a battle that sometimes a runner loses. That doesn't make it stupid every time he loses.

[dk123]

This thread is an example of why there will never be peace in the middle east.

[veryzer]

<!--quoteo(post=94474:date=May 3 2010, 06:27 PM:name=jstraw)-->QUOTE (jstraw @ May 3 2010, 06:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=94472:date=May 3 2010, 06:19 PM:name=KBwsb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KBwsb @ May 3 2010, 06:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=94467:date=May 3 2010, 05:56 PM:name=Giff)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Giff @ May 3 2010, 05:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=94464:date=May 3 2010, 05:44 PM:name=KBwsb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KBwsb @ May 3 2010, 05:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=94447:date=May 3 2010, 04:15 PM:name=jstraw)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jstraw @ May 3 2010, 04:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->In Henderson's record-setting year (130 in 1982) he was caught stealing 42 times. He was picked off or caught in a run-down 14 times.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd say that a guy who steals 130 bases is basically running wild, no? Like, in a way that absolutely nobody in history has ever done.

<b>Question</b>: do you guys actually think that guys who get picked off first are NEVER caught napping?
-That they're all extremely heads-up ballplayers who are simply physically incapable of getting back to first base all the time?
-That it's 100% a skill, and some guys just don't have the physical skill?
-That unlike other parts of the game, where there is blatant evidence of a player who's head is in the clouds (throwing the ball in the stands with only 2 outs, etc.) , these type of players <i>never</i> make mental mistakes when on first base?

Is that the line of reasoning?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dude, there isn't anybody saying guys never get caught napping, nor is there anyone saying that when someone gets caught napping it isn't a mental mistake. The point is, a lot of the time, when someone gets picked off, it's because they're leaning towards second trying to get a better jump in order to steal second. And that isn't a mental mistake.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, of course I agree with that. That's obvious.
But even in the situation you described, depending on the circumstances, it can be a mental error. There are many times in a game when having a runner on base is hugely important, and the player should not be taking <i>any</i> risk.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

That's what coaches and managers are for. If a guy has the green light, that's a managing decision. Yes, of course guys get caught being stupid <b>but the argument that I'm having with Tommy is over whether or not every guy picked off is guilty of a mental error. he says yes and I say no.</b> It's a battle that sometimes a runner loses. That doesn't make it stupid every time he loses.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


Wow, Dude I'm not saying every pickoff is a mental error. I'm not saying that at all.

Often times it is though, and to include getting picked off in a piece about poor baserunning and mental errors, really isn't that big a deal. That's all I'm saying.

[jstraw]

"Mental mistake or not, getting picked off of first is a boneheaded play."

Dude! You said this.

[phan]

<!--quoteo(post=94467:date=May 3 2010, 05:56 PM:name=Giff)-->QUOTE (Giff @ May 3 2010, 05:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=94464:date=May 3 2010, 05:44 PM:name=KBwsb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KBwsb @ May 3 2010, 05:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=94447:date=May 3 2010, 04:15 PM:name=jstraw)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jstraw @ May 3 2010, 04:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->In Henderson's record-setting year (130 in 1982) he was caught stealing 42 times. He was picked off or caught in a run-down 14 times.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd say that a guy who steals 130 bases is basically running wild, no? Like, in a way that absolutely nobody in history has ever done.

<b>Question</b>: do you guys actually think that guys who get picked off first are NEVER caught napping?
-That they're all extremely heads-up ballplayers who are simply physically incapable of getting back to first base all the time?
-That it's 100% a skill, and some guys just don't have the physical skill?
-That unlike other parts of the game, where there is blatant evidence of a player who's head is in the clouds (throwing the ball in the stands with only 2 outs, etc.) , these type of players <i>never</i> make mental mistakes when on first base?

Is that the line of reasoning?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dude, there isn't anybody saying guys never get caught napping, nor is there anyone saying that when someone gets caught napping it isn't a mental mistake. The point is, a lot of the time, when someone gets picked off, it's because they're leaning towards second trying to get a better jump in order to steal second. And that isn't a mental mistake.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


let's put it this way...this whole thing was based off the line "was caught leaning off first". That sounds to me like somebody who was napping...not somebody who was trying to gain an edge to seriously steal a base. that is a mental mistake.