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<!--quoteo(post=116466:date=Oct 6 2010, 05:21 PM:name=Ace)-->QUOTE (Ace @ Oct 6 2010, 05:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=116465:date=Oct 6 2010, 06:20 PM:name=funkster)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (funkster @ Oct 6 2010, 06:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Finally an armistice. Next topic...Lou demoted Z by taking him out of the 2007 NLDS. Discuss.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Conspiracy/Vampire attack.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Z is clearly a werewolf.
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<!--quoteo(post=116387:date=Oct 6 2010, 12:04 PM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Oct 6 2010, 12:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Swap whatever innings Wells/Gorz/Silva gave us for what Z would have given us, and I believe we would have been incrementally better. But that doesn't prove or disprove anyone's point. The point remains -- they moved Z (our "tenured" starting pitcher) to the bullpen instead of Gorz/Wells/Silva when Z has a far more impressive pedigree than any of those guys. You can say that all three of those guys were pitching better than Z at the time -- which is true. But you don't make decisions like that based on what is going on in April. You have to look at the big picture.
You're looking for the fallout? Here's a possible negative fallout -- it was a major distraction. Nobody would have blinked if Gorz was moved to the 'pen. Moving Zambrano to the 'pen was a huge story.
It also could have (I know -- it didn't) completely fucked over Zambrano's confidence. I know Z came out of the entire thing seemingly unscathed (and maybe even better), but how could Hendry/Lou have predicted that? Nobody could have -- not with someone as crazy as Z.
And what if Wells/Gorz/Silva turned out to be an amazing set-up man?
We can plan this what-if game all day. None of it matters. Even if Z pitched lights-out in the bullpen, it was still the wrong move.
You simply don't give Gorz/Wells/Silva 130 more innings than you give to Zambrano.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The new best post in the thread.
Except for one thing. I think it did mess with Zambrano's confidence. So much so, he had to go back to the minors to fix it.
Wang.
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I'm a head custodian.
My boss comes up to me and says, "We're closing your school. We're gonna keep you on, but you won't be a head custodian anymore, just a regular custodian. Not your fault, you did a good job, but there's no room for another head custodian job."
That my friends is a demotion. Not a punishment, but a demotion. There's a difference.
Zambrano was demoted.
And like Butcher said, had he not been demoted (which he was), all that shit that happened mid-season, most likely wouldn't have happened.
No Zambrano tanking in the bullpen.
No Zambrano tanking after he got put back in the rotation.
No Zambrano meltdown.
No media frenzy.
And given how he pitched at the end of the year, it's safe to say he would've have won a few of the games that Gorz and Wells and Silva were losing.
Wang.
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<!--quoteo(post=116522:date=Oct 7 2010, 07:25 AM:name=veryzer)-->QUOTE (veryzer @ Oct 7 2010, 07:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->And like Butcher said, had he not been demoted (which he was), all that shit that happened mid-season, most likely wouldn't have happened.
No Zambrano tanking in the bullpen.
No Zambrano tanking after he got put back in the rotation.
No Zambrano meltdown.
No media frenzy.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No 8-0 with a 1.38 ERA in the second half, right?
Assuming your version of events is correct, so what? After Zambrano tanked in the bullpen, after he tanked back in the rotation, after his meltdown, after the media frenzy, what was the end result? Zambrano pitched maybe the best stretch of baseball in his career. He is far more marketable right now than he was on April 30th. Would any of that had happened if he didn't get suspended? I have no idea. But I do know after he was suspended, he pitched really well.
So what is the problem?
I wish that I believed in Fate. I wish I didn't sleep so late. I used to be carried in the arms of cheerleaders.
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I'm not upset about the decision anymore. I'm just happy as a clam that Z is back to being a bad, bad man once again.
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<!--quoteo(post=116531:date=Oct 7 2010, 08:22 AM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Oct 7 2010, 08:22 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=116522:date=Oct 7 2010, 07:25 AM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Oct 7 2010, 07:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->And like Butcher said, had he not been demoted (which he was), all that shit that happened mid-season, most likely wouldn't have happened.
No Zambrano tanking in the bullpen.
No Zambrano tanking after he got put back in the rotation.
No Zambrano meltdown.
No media frenzy.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No 8-0 with a 1.38 ERA in the second half, right?
Assuming your version of events is correct, so what? After Zambrano tanked in the bullpen, after he tanked back in the rotation, after his meltdown, after the media frenzy, what was the end result? Zambrano pitched maybe the best stretch of baseball in his career. He is far more marketable right now than he was on April 30th. Would any of that had happened if he didn't get suspended? I have no idea. But I do know after he was suspended, he pitched really well.
So what is the problem?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you think he pitched better the second half because he was demoted? If so, why not demote every starting pitcher that struggles?
Wang.
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<!--quoteo(post=116534:date=Oct 7 2010, 08:41 AM:name=rok)-->QUOTE (rok @ Oct 7 2010, 08:41 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I'm not upset about the decision anymore. I'm just happy as a clam that Z is back to being a bad, bad man once again.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are clams happy?
But I agree, this season was on its way to shitville by about the bottom of the first in Atlanta game 1. I am happy the dude rebounded and gives me great hope that he will be a badass next year.
Dylan McKay is my hero
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<!--quoteo(post=116522:date=Oct 7 2010, 08:25 AM:name=veryzer)-->QUOTE (veryzer @ Oct 7 2010, 08:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I'm a head custodian.
My boss comes up to me and says, "We're closing your school. We're gonna keep you on, but you won't be a head custodian anymore, just a regular custodian. Not your fault, you did a good job, but there's no room for another head custodian job."
That my friends is a demotion. Not a punishment, but a demotion. There's a difference.
Zambrano was demoted.
And like Butcher said, had he not been demoted (which he was), all that shit that happened mid-season, most likely wouldn't have happened.
No Zambrano tanking in the bullpen.
No Zambrano tanking after he got put back in the rotation.
No Zambrano meltdown.
No media frenzy.
And given how he pitched at the end of the year, it's safe to say he would've have won a few of the games that Gorz and Wells and Silva were losing.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In all fairness, I don't think it's a stretch to say Zambrano could have easily had a meltdown, demotion or not. I don't really think the demotion caused his meltdown at all.
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<!--quoteo(post=116541:date=Oct 7 2010, 11:06 AM:name=Dirk)-->QUOTE (Dirk @ Oct 7 2010, 11:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=116522:date=Oct 7 2010, 08:25 AM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Oct 7 2010, 08:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I'm a head custodian.
My boss comes up to me and says, "We're closing your school. We're gonna keep you on, but you won't be a head custodian anymore, just a regular custodian. Not your fault, you did a good job, but there's no room for another head custodian job."
That my friends is a demotion. Not a punishment, but a demotion. There's a difference.
Zambrano was demoted.
And like Butcher said, had he not been demoted (which he was), all that shit that happened mid-season, most likely wouldn't have happened.
No Zambrano tanking in the bullpen.
No Zambrano tanking after he got put back in the rotation.
No Zambrano meltdown.
No media frenzy.
And given how he pitched at the end of the year, it's safe to say he would've have won a few of the games that Gorz and Wells and Silva were losing.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In all fairness, I don't think it's a stretch to say Zambrano could have easily had a meltdown, demotion or not. I don't really think the demotion caused his meltdown at all.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree. I would say that Zambrano's meltdown was a result of his strugles on the mound, which were the cause of the demotion, not the other way around.
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<!--quoteo(post=116536:date=Oct 7 2010, 08:58 AM:name=veryzer)-->QUOTE (veryzer @ Oct 7 2010, 08:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=116531:date=Oct 7 2010, 08:22 AM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Oct 7 2010, 08:22 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=116522:date=Oct 7 2010, 07:25 AM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Oct 7 2010, 07:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->And like Butcher said, had he not been demoted (which he was), all that shit that happened mid-season, most likely wouldn't have happened.
No Zambrano tanking in the bullpen.
No Zambrano tanking after he got put back in the rotation.
No Zambrano meltdown.
No media frenzy.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No 8-0 with a 1.38 ERA in the second half, right?
Assuming your version of events is correct, so what? After Zambrano tanked in the bullpen, after he tanked back in the rotation, after his meltdown, after the media frenzy, what was the end result? Zambrano pitched maybe the best stretch of baseball in his career. He is far more marketable right now than he was on April 30th. Would any of that had happened if he didn't get suspended? I have no idea. But I do know after he was suspended, he pitched really well.
So what is the problem?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you think he pitched better the second half because he was demoted? If so, why not demote every starting pitcher that struggles?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
so you are attributing shitty pitching and a nervous breakdown to a change from the rotation to the bullpen, but a guy pitching better after being suspended a seeing a shrink is preposterous?
I honestly have no idea if the better record is because he saw a shrink. I do know that if he sucked after the suspension, many (not all as I don't want BZ freaking out on me again) would attribute it to how the Cubs treated him. It seems only logical the opposite should be a possibility.
I wish that I believed in Fate. I wish I didn't sleep so late. I used to be carried in the arms of cheerleaders.
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<!--quoteo(post=116564:date=Oct 7 2010, 12:03 PM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Oct 7 2010, 12:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=116536:date=Oct 7 2010, 08:58 AM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Oct 7 2010, 08:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=116531:date=Oct 7 2010, 08:22 AM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Oct 7 2010, 08:22 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=116522:date=Oct 7 2010, 07:25 AM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Oct 7 2010, 07:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->And like Butcher said, had he not been demoted (which he was), all that shit that happened mid-season, most likely wouldn't have happened.
No Zambrano tanking in the bullpen.
No Zambrano tanking after he got put back in the rotation.
No Zambrano meltdown.
No media frenzy.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No 8-0 with a 1.38 ERA in the second half, right?
Assuming your version of events is correct, so what? After Zambrano tanked in the bullpen, after he tanked back in the rotation, after his meltdown, after the media frenzy, what was the end result? Zambrano pitched maybe the best stretch of baseball in his career. He is far more marketable right now than he was on April 30th. Would any of that had happened if he didn't get suspended? I have no idea. But I do know after he was suspended, he pitched really well.
So what is the problem?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you think he pitched better the second half because he was demoted? If so, why not demote every starting pitcher that struggles?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
so you are attributing shitty pitching and a nervous breakdown to a change from the rotation to the bullpen, but a guy pitching better after being suspended a seeing a shrink is preposterous?
I honestly have no idea if the better record is because he saw a shrink. I do know that if he sucked after the suspension, many (not all as I don't want BZ freaking out on me again) would attribute it to how the Cubs treated him. It seems only logical the opposite should be a possibility.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I honestly believe that he not been demoted, he would've righted the ship on his own, as he'd done every year of his career. I believe he'd not only would've finished the season the same way, but would've done it for a longer period. I also believe the meltdown would never have happened.
And really, even if there was no downside to the demotion, as you claim, that doesn't mean it was the right decision. Because it wasn't. It was retarded.
Wang.
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Maybe the meltdown happening was a good thing for him long-term, though. I'm not saying the meltdown directly caused his improved performance. I'm just saying that maybe he needed whatever therapy he got, and maybe he was never going to get it unless he melted down.
Now, am I willing to say that the move the bullpen was designed to cause that meltdown and that the Cubs are therefore evil geniuses? No way.
(Reminder before reacting: I was against the move when it was made)
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i just read all 56 pages. You are all wrong and right.
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