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<!--quoteo(post=116394:date=Oct 6 2010, 12:51 PM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Oct 6 2010, 12:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->The outcome (in either direction) doesn't justify the decision.
If Lou pinch hit Marshall for Ramirez in a game-on-the-line RBI situation and Marshall hit a grand slam, that doesn't make it the right decision.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, it wouldn't. But it would also be odd if you were still upset about it 5 months later.
I wish that I believed in Fate. I wish I didn't sleep so late. I used to be carried in the arms of cheerleaders.
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<!--quoteo(post=116397:date=Oct 6 2010, 12:55 PM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Oct 6 2010, 12:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=116394:date=Oct 6 2010, 12:51 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Oct 6 2010, 12:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->The outcome (in either direction) doesn't justify the decision.
If Lou pinch hit Marshall for Ramirez in a game-on-the-line RBI situation and Marshall hit a grand slam, that doesn't make it the right decision.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, it wouldn't. But it would also be odd if you were still upset about it 5 months later.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not upset about it at all.
Give us something else to talk about and let's move on.
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I'm not upset either. I've said countless times how satisfying it felt to watch Z kick ass again. His comeback, Castro's emergence and Cashner's glimpses of dominance are the only positive takeaways from this miserable season.
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<!--quoteo(post=116398:date=Oct 6 2010, 12:57 PM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Oct 6 2010, 12:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=116397:date=Oct 6 2010, 12:55 PM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Oct 6 2010, 12:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=116394:date=Oct 6 2010, 12:51 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Oct 6 2010, 12:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->The outcome (in either direction) doesn't justify the decision.
If Lou pinch hit Marshall for Ramirez in a game-on-the-line RBI situation and Marshall hit a grand slam, that doesn't make it the right decision.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, it wouldn't. But it would also be odd if you were still upset about it 5 months later.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not upset about it at all.
Give us something else to talk about and let's move on.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What I'm saying is that not only are you acting like moving Z out was as crazy as pinch hitting Marshall, but also that it blew up in the Cubs face. You are acting as if it was indefensible, and it wasn't, and you are acting as if it was a disaster, and it wasn't.
In the end, it worked out for the Cubs about as well as you could have (reasonably) hoped. They now have 4 tradeable assets, whereas before they had 3 at best, and more likely 2. Z ended up finishing the year with one of, if not his best stretch ever, Silva ended up not terrible, Gorzellany ended up with pretty good numbers, and Wells didn't end up in the bullpen.
I wish that I believed in Fate. I wish I didn't sleep so late. I used to be carried in the arms of cheerleaders.
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<!--quoteo(post=116380:date=Oct 6 2010, 11:30 AM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Oct 6 2010, 11:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=116323:date=Oct 6 2010, 07:06 AM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Oct 6 2010, 07:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=116248:date=Oct 5 2010, 12:58 PM:name=leonardsipes)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (leonardsipes @ Oct 5 2010, 12:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=116183:date=Oct 4 2010, 05:04 PM:name=Ace)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ace @ Oct 4 2010, 05:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Question - why do we consider the Z to the pen move a "demotion"? Because he was pitching badly? That's not really the MAIN reason he was moved to the pen. Lilly was coming back and all the other starters were pitching well. If Gorzelanny - who had an ERA around 2 at the time - had been moved to the pen, would that have been a "demotion"? Of course not. It would have been a move that had to be made because there wasn't a spot for Lilly.
I pretty much think the same is true of Z. He wasn't demoted. He was chosen. It just happened to be the wrong choice (I thought it should have been Wells, but whateves).<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When the move was made, I posted my support. The Cubs needed a set up man and had one extra starter. Four guys who's stock in trade was being decent over six innings, and Zambrano they guy who it seemed most likely could be dominant over 1 inning. It turned out to be a stupid move. One would hope, the people running the team were smarter than me, but I was in no position to complain.
Then, when Zambrano was at his low, Hendry said that they did not just move him to the bullpen because of his bad start, but based on his last 40 games. It pissed me off, that they put so much thought into what was a very bad decision. They really thought Zambrano was the worst of the 5. They really thought it was smart to demote the pitcher who they had the most money invested in, with the most fragile ego and who deserved to be treated with the most respect.
It was a very stupid move. It was sold as not a demotion, that Z was on board, and the best solution to solidify the bullpen. Even if all that was true, I think it would have turned out to be the wrong decision. Then when everthing goes to hell, Hendry basicly says, "see I demoted the right one."
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Best post in the thread.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
OK, I'll try this again.
If this is the best post in the thread, if the Zambrano "demotion" (and I pretty much agree with Ace on this one, but I can only fight one battle at a time) was so stupid, it should be very very easy for someone on this board to explain to me what the negative ramifications were. If it is as universally stupid as everyone says, please, someone, explain to me the downside. How was the team hurt? How was Zambrano hurt (besides his feelings I guess). What would have been better (other than theoretically Zambrano's stats) if they had chosen someone else? I'm not asking why you would have done something different, but what was the negative fallout of this move? I can think of a few good things that happened because of it, but no one seems to be able to answer what the downside was.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No one seems to be? For the second time I ask...how many starts did this cost Z? And when he did finally start again, was he where he'd have been if he'd been allowed to work through it...or was he behind where his form should/would have been?
This doesn't even seem complicated to me.
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<!--quoteo(post=116391:date=Oct 6 2010, 12:38 PM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Oct 6 2010, 12:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I'm not trying to play the what if game. I'm playing the what happened game. I'm saying the Cubs gave Gorz/Wells/Silva 130 more innings than Zambrano, and by almost any measure were not only unhurt by it, but in all probably it helped them.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What?
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<!--quoteo(post=116402:date=Oct 6 2010, 01:08 PM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Oct 6 2010, 01:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=116398:date=Oct 6 2010, 12:57 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Oct 6 2010, 12:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=116397:date=Oct 6 2010, 12:55 PM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Oct 6 2010, 12:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=116394:date=Oct 6 2010, 12:51 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Oct 6 2010, 12:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->The outcome (in either direction) doesn't justify the decision.
If Lou pinch hit Marshall for Ramirez in a game-on-the-line RBI situation and Marshall hit a grand slam, that doesn't make it the right decision.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, it wouldn't. But it would also be odd if you were still upset about it 5 months later.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not upset about it at all.
Give us something else to talk about and let's move on.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What I'm saying is that not only are you acting like moving Z out was as crazy as pinch hitting Marshall, but also that it blew up in the Cubs face. You are acting as if it was indefensible, and it wasn't, and you are acting as if it was a disaster, and it wasn't.
In the end, it worked out for the Cubs about as well as you could have (reasonably) hoped. They now have 4 tradeable assets, whereas before they had 3 at best, and more likely 2. Z ended up finishing the year with one of, if not his best stretch ever, Silva ended up not terrible, Gorzellany ended up with pretty good numbers, and Wells didn't end up in the bullpen.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It was indefensible.
But I'm no longer upset about it.
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<!--quoteo(post=116407:date=Oct 6 2010, 01:17 PM:name=jstraw)-->QUOTE (jstraw @ Oct 6 2010, 01:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=116380:date=Oct 6 2010, 11:30 AM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Oct 6 2010, 11:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=116323:date=Oct 6 2010, 07:06 AM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Oct 6 2010, 07:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=116248:date=Oct 5 2010, 12:58 PM:name=leonardsipes)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (leonardsipes @ Oct 5 2010, 12:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=116183:date=Oct 4 2010, 05:04 PM:name=Ace)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ace @ Oct 4 2010, 05:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Question - why do we consider the Z to the pen move a "demotion"? Because he was pitching badly? That's not really the MAIN reason he was moved to the pen. Lilly was coming back and all the other starters were pitching well. If Gorzelanny - who had an ERA around 2 at the time - had been moved to the pen, would that have been a "demotion"? Of course not. It would have been a move that had to be made because there wasn't a spot for Lilly.
I pretty much think the same is true of Z. He wasn't demoted. He was chosen. It just happened to be the wrong choice (I thought it should have been Wells, but whateves).<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When the move was made, I posted my support. The Cubs needed a set up man and had one extra starter. Four guys who's stock in trade was being decent over six innings, and Zambrano they guy who it seemed most likely could be dominant over 1 inning. It turned out to be a stupid move. One would hope, the people running the team were smarter than me, but I was in no position to complain.
Then, when Zambrano was at his low, Hendry said that they did not just move him to the bullpen because of his bad start, but based on his last 40 games. It pissed me off, that they put so much thought into what was a very bad decision. They really thought Zambrano was the worst of the 5. They really thought it was smart to demote the pitcher who they had the most money invested in, with the most fragile ego and who deserved to be treated with the most respect.
It was a very stupid move. It was sold as not a demotion, that Z was on board, and the best solution to solidify the bullpen. Even if all that was true, I think it would have turned out to be the wrong decision. Then when everthing goes to hell, Hendry basicly says, "see I demoted the right one."
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Best post in the thread.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
OK, I'll try this again.
If this is the best post in the thread, if the Zambrano "demotion" (and I pretty much agree with Ace on this one, but I can only fight one battle at a time) was so stupid, it should be very very easy for someone on this board to explain to me what the negative ramifications were. If it is as universally stupid as everyone says, please, someone, explain to me the downside. How was the team hurt? How was Zambrano hurt (besides his feelings I guess). What would have been better (other than theoretically Zambrano's stats) if they had chosen someone else? I'm not asking why you would have done something different, but what was the negative fallout of this move? I can think of a few good things that happened because of it, but no one seems to be able to answer what the downside was.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No one seems to be? For the second time I ask...how many starts did this cost Z? And when he did finally start again, was he where he'd have been if he'd been allowed to work through it...or was he behind where his form should/would have been?
This doesn't even seem complicated to me.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not sure what you are trying to argue here. Are you arguing that Zambrano's personal stats would have been better if they had left him in the rotation? If that IS what you are arguing, then again, this is countered by the fact that the guys left in the rotation pitched well. From the Cubs standpoint, it doesn't matter if they were getting a QS from Zambrano or from Gorz. If that isn't what you are arguing, what is your point?
I wish that I believed in Fate. I wish I didn't sleep so late. I used to be carried in the arms of cheerleaders.
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<!--quoteo(post=116409:date=Oct 6 2010, 01:19 PM:name=jstraw)-->QUOTE (jstraw @ Oct 6 2010, 01:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=116391:date=Oct 6 2010, 12:38 PM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Oct 6 2010, 12:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I'm not trying to play the what if game. I'm playing the what happened game. I'm saying the Cubs gave Gorz/Wells/Silva 130 more innings than Zambrano, and by almost any measure were not only unhurt by it, but in all probably it helped them.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not trying to play the what if game. I'm playing the what happened game. I'm saying the Cubs gave Gorz/Wells/Silva 130 more innings than Zambrano, and by almost any measure were not only unhurt by it, but in all probably it helped them.
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<!--quoteo(post=116414:date=Oct 6 2010, 01:30 PM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Oct 6 2010, 01:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=116407:date=Oct 6 2010, 01:17 PM:name=jstraw)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jstraw @ Oct 6 2010, 01:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=116380:date=Oct 6 2010, 11:30 AM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Oct 6 2010, 11:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=116323:date=Oct 6 2010, 07:06 AM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Oct 6 2010, 07:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=116248:date=Oct 5 2010, 12:58 PM:name=leonardsipes)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (leonardsipes @ Oct 5 2010, 12:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=116183:date=Oct 4 2010, 05:04 PM:name=Ace)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ace @ Oct 4 2010, 05:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Question - why do we consider the Z to the pen move a "demotion"? Because he was pitching badly? That's not really the MAIN reason he was moved to the pen. Lilly was coming back and all the other starters were pitching well. If Gorzelanny - who had an ERA around 2 at the time - had been moved to the pen, would that have been a "demotion"? Of course not. It would have been a move that had to be made because there wasn't a spot for Lilly.
I pretty much think the same is true of Z. He wasn't demoted. He was chosen. It just happened to be the wrong choice (I thought it should have been Wells, but whateves).<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When the move was made, I posted my support. The Cubs needed a set up man and had one extra starter. Four guys who's stock in trade was being decent over six innings, and Zambrano they guy who it seemed most likely could be dominant over 1 inning. It turned out to be a stupid move. One would hope, the people running the team were smarter than me, but I was in no position to complain.
Then, when Zambrano was at his low, Hendry said that they did not just move him to the bullpen because of his bad start, but based on his last 40 games. It pissed me off, that they put so much thought into what was a very bad decision. They really thought Zambrano was the worst of the 5. They really thought it was smart to demote the pitcher who they had the most money invested in, with the most fragile ego and who deserved to be treated with the most respect.
It was a very stupid move. It was sold as not a demotion, that Z was on board, and the best solution to solidify the bullpen. Even if all that was true, I think it would have turned out to be the wrong decision. Then when everthing goes to hell, Hendry basicly says, "see I demoted the right one."
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Best post in the thread.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
OK, I'll try this again.
If this is the best post in the thread, if the Zambrano "demotion" (and I pretty much agree with Ace on this one, but I can only fight one battle at a time) was so stupid, it should be very very easy for someone on this board to explain to me what the negative ramifications were. If it is as universally stupid as everyone says, please, someone, explain to me the downside. How was the team hurt? How was Zambrano hurt (besides his feelings I guess). What would have been better (other than theoretically Zambrano's stats) if they had chosen someone else? I'm not asking why you would have done something different, but what was the negative fallout of this move? I can think of a few good things that happened because of it, but no one seems to be able to answer what the downside was.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No one seems to be? For the second time I ask...how many starts did this cost Z? And when he did finally start again, was he where he'd have been if he'd been allowed to work through it...or was he behind where his form should/would have been?
This doesn't even seem complicated to me.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not sure what you are trying to argue here. Are you arguing that Zambrano's personal stats would have been better if they had left him in the rotation? If that IS what you are arguing, then again, this is countered by the fact that the guys left in the rotation pitched well. From the Cubs standpoint, it doesn't matter if they were getting a QS from Zambrano or from Gorz. If that isn't what you are arguing, what is your point?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wasn't this around the time Wells was showing how shitty he was in daytime starts with a hangover? Wasn't this around the time Silva began to return to form? Not only would Z have been in the rotation, someone that maybe should have been out of it, would have been. I don't know if I have the patience to figure out if the Silva/Gorz/Wells starts during Z's absence from the rotation were all quality starts. You're implying they were. That seems counter to my recollection.
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<!--quoteo(post=116415:date=Oct 6 2010, 01:31 PM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Oct 6 2010, 01:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=116409:date=Oct 6 2010, 01:19 PM:name=jstraw)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jstraw @ Oct 6 2010, 01:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=116391:date=Oct 6 2010, 12:38 PM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Oct 6 2010, 12:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I'm not trying to play the what if game. I'm playing the what happened game. I'm saying the Cubs gave Gorz/Wells/Silva 130 more innings than Zambrano, and by almost any measure were not only unhurt by it, but in all probably it helped them.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not trying to play the what if game. I'm playing the what happened game. I'm saying the Cubs gave Gorz/Wells/Silva 130 more innings than Zambrano, and by almost any measure were not only unhurt by it, but in all probably it helped them.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok.
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I'm not saying every start by all 3 was quality. I'm saying that starting pitching during that time was our strength, not our weakness. For instance, Wells had 3 bad starts in april/May. We won one of them, and in the other 2 the offense scored 1 run in each game. Having Zambrano in there would have in almost all certainty made no difference.
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Wells:
0-3, 5.40 ERA in May
0-3, 6.14 ERA in June
2-2, 1.83 ERA in July
It's kind of weird how Wells was allowed to work through two months of shitty pitching and Z got yanked from the rotation after 4 rocky starts in April.
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<!--quoteo(post=116419:date=Oct 6 2010, 01:44 PM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Oct 6 2010, 01:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Wells:
0-3, 5.40 ERA in May
0-3, 6.14 ERA in June
2-2, 1.83 ERA in July
It's kind of weird how Wells was allowed to work through two months of shitty pitching and Z got yanked from the rotation after 4 rocky starts in April.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While I agree with the "it was a demotion" position there are two other facts that can't be overlooked. We were being killed by shitty middle relief and when Lilly came back we were going to have too many starters. Whether or not you characterize Z's transfer as getting yanked, someone was going to get sent...and it was going to be a demotion. Whether or not it did significant harm to the season that it was Z demoted, may be debatable...but only insofar as the word "significant" is debatable. The wrong pitcher was demoted. The smart money all said Silva or Gorz. The smart money was wrong but the smart money was smarter than Piniella and Hendry.
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And Silva was about average (record aside) in May (5-0, 4.15 ERA, 1.36 WHIP), very good in June (1-2, 2.77 ERA, 0.92 WHIP), and quite shitty and hurt from July on:
July (2-2, 6.86 ERA, 1.90 WHIP)
August (0-1, 54.00 ERA, 9.0 WHIP)
September (0-1, 10.80 ERA, 2.0 WHIP)
Maybe the heavy workload that he took on early in the season caught up with him. He could have used a similar vacation/demotion as Z got in retrospect. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rolleyes.gif[/img]
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