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<!--quoteo(post=116418:date=Oct 6 2010, 01:41 PM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Oct 6 2010, 01:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I'm not saying every start by all 3 was quality. I'm saying that starting pitching during that time was our strength, not our weakness. For instance, Wells had 3 bad starts in april/May. We won one of them, and in the other 2 the offense scored 1 run in each game. Having Zambrano in there would have in almost all certainty made no difference.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In winning with a bad start, how much strain does that put on the bench and pen? Aren't there other dividends a team gets, winning a QS?
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<!--quoteo(post=116397:date=Oct 6 2010, 12:55 PM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Oct 6 2010, 12:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=116394:date=Oct 6 2010, 12:51 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Oct 6 2010, 12:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->The outcome (in either direction) doesn't justify the decision.
If Lou pinch hit Marshall for Ramirez in a game-on-the-line RBI situation and Marshall hit a grand slam, that doesn't make it the right decision.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, it wouldn't. But it would also be odd if you were still upset about it 5 months later.
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This thread has been exhausting. 52 pages and counting...
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<!--quoteo(post=116423:date=Oct 6 2010, 01:53 PM:name=funkster)-->QUOTE (funkster @ Oct 6 2010, 01:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=116397:date=Oct 6 2010, 12:55 PM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Oct 6 2010, 12:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=116394:date=Oct 6 2010, 12:51 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Oct 6 2010, 12:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->The outcome (in either direction) doesn't justify the decision.
If Lou pinch hit Marshall for Ramirez in a game-on-the-line RBI situation and Marshall hit a grand slam, that doesn't make it the right decision.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, it wouldn't. But it would also be odd if you were still upset about it 5 months later.
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This thread has been exhausting. 52 pages and counting...
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Any minds getting changed yet?
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I don't think so....and I think only about 25 of the pages have been devoted to this particular argument.
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<!--quoteo(post=116419:date=Oct 6 2010, 01:44 PM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Oct 6 2010, 01:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Wells:
0-3, 5.40 ERA in May
0-3, 6.14 ERA in June
2-2, 1.83 ERA in July
It's kind of weird how Wells was allowed to work through two months of shitty pitching and Z got yanked from the rotation after 4 rocky starts in April.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Butch's world:
Hendry: "Hey guys, you know who has had four bad starts? Zambrano"
Lou: "I know, but what can you do? "
Rothschild: "Well, if it were anyone else, I'd say give him some time to pitch through it. But not Zambrano. At the very least, he needs to be punished"
Hendry: "I know, let's stick him in the pen!"
Lou: "That would be totally fucking awesome, but we can't get by with a 4 man rotation. Especially in April"
All three: "Crap!"
five minutes pass.....
Rothschild: "HOLY SHIT!!!!! I just remembered, Lilly is going to be coming off the DL soon!"
Hendry: "A perfect storm!!!!!!! We get to punish Zambrano, like we all agreed, but we also have a body to fill out the rotation!"
Lou: "Yet again, fate smiles on the Cubs!"
I wish that I believed in Fate. I wish I didn't sleep so late. I used to be carried in the arms of cheerleaders.
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It does seem like a bit of a conspiracy theory.
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We needed help in the pen and we were about to have 6 starters. Hendry first says he picked Z because he was our best hope and he asked Z to do it for the team. Then he says that it was because he was the weakest link in the rotation. It doesn't take a conspiracy to be an idiot.
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<!--quoteo(post=116448:date=Oct 6 2010, 03:48 PM:name=jstraw)-->QUOTE (jstraw @ Oct 6 2010, 03:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->We needed help in the pen and we were about to have 6 starters. Hendry first says he picked Z because he was our best hope and he asked Z to do it for the team. Then he says that it was because he was the weakest link in the rotation. It doesn't take a conspiracy to be an idiot.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are these 2 options mutually exclusive? Couldn't it have been both, but Hendry didn't want to talk about the latter until Zambrano acted like an asshole?
I wish that I believed in Fate. I wish I didn't sleep so late. I used to be carried in the arms of cheerleaders.
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This is making my head hurt. Can we agree that it was a knee jerk desperate move in an attempt to short term strengthen the 7th/8th inning duties because all three were too retarded to see that Marshall would be a great candidate for the job? And Hendry didn't do his job by trying to get another veteran arm for the pen?
I don't think it was punishment. And it surely isn't the rocket science it is being discussed as. I think it was a few idiots making a short sighted decision in the hopes of putting a band-aid on an ax wound and keep the ship from completely sinking as early as April. Hendry realized he 100% fucked up not trading for a vet reliever, Grabow was poop, and the young guys flat out blew goat dick. So, he says " I know, I'll try to cover my shitty non move by putting my best power arm in front of Marmol, that'll be a great 1-2 punch and no one will remember me not getting the quality vet arm that even a 3 year old knew we needed!!" And Lou didn't give a fuck because he didn't want to be there anyway, and Rothschild went along to not cause turbulence in the management circle.
I think it's a lot closer to 2+2 shit than some equation of punishment/underperforming/demotion/lesson teaching.
Regardless, it was dumb and short sighted. But I don't think it was really that complicated.
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<!--quoteo(post=116444:date=Oct 6 2010, 03:20 PM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Oct 6 2010, 03:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=116419:date=Oct 6 2010, 01:44 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Oct 6 2010, 01:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Wells:
0-3, 5.40 ERA in May
0-3, 6.14 ERA in June
2-2, 1.83 ERA in July
It's kind of weird how Wells was allowed to work through two months of shitty pitching and Z got yanked from the rotation after 4 rocky starts in April.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Butch's world:
Hendry: "Hey guys, you know who has had four bad starts? Zambrano"
Lou: "I know, but what can you do? "
Rothschild: "Well, if it were anyone else, I'd say give him some time to pitch through it. But not Zambrano. At the very least, he needs to be punished"
Hendry: "I know, let's stick him in the pen!"
Lou: "That would be totally fucking awesome, but we can't get by with a 4 man rotation. Especially in April"
All three: "Crap!"
five minutes pass.....
Rothschild: "HOLY SHIT!!!!! I just remembered, Lilly is going to be coming off the DL soon!"
Hendry: "A perfect storm!!!!!!! We get to punish Zambrano, like we all agreed, but we also have a body to fill out the rotation!"
Lou: "Yet again, fate smiles on the Cubs!"
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yep. You nailed it. Way to go.
I can't think it's weird that Zambrano was given such a short leash while the rest of our rotation was given all the slack they needed without it being a conspiracy theory?
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<!--quoteo(post=116330:date=Oct 6 2010, 09:17 AM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Oct 6 2010, 09:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=116327:date=Oct 6 2010, 07:21 AM:name=Ace)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ace @ Oct 6 2010, 07:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=116298:date=Oct 5 2010, 09:23 PM:name=Ace)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ace @ Oct 5 2010, 09:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->To restate: all I'm saying is I don't think the Cubs moved Z to the pen because he was sucking. I think it factored into the decision, but I think the primary reason for the move was that they had to move someone, and they felt Z was the best man for the job. I thought they were wrong then; obviously it bore out that they were wrong.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hello.
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So...are you saying that Hendry and Lou realized that it would be seen as a demotion, but they forged ahead anyway? Because I don't see how that's any different than what anyone else is saying.
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No - I think they didn't think about it as in-depth as you guys are. They saw a need, did some thinking, ran the idea past Z (don't forget that part), and went for it. It was stupid, not malicious.
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<!--quoteo(post=116448:date=Oct 6 2010, 04:48 PM:name=jstraw)-->QUOTE (jstraw @ Oct 6 2010, 04:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->We needed help in the pen and we were about to have 6 starters. Hendry first says he picked Z because he was our best hope and he asked Z to do it for the team. Then he says that it was because he was the weakest link in the rotation. It doesn't take a conspiracy to be an idiot.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
THIS! THIS! THIS!
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<!--quoteo(post=116460:date=Oct 6 2010, 04:53 PM:name=Ace)-->QUOTE (Ace @ Oct 6 2010, 04:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=116448:date=Oct 6 2010, 04:48 PM:name=jstraw)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jstraw @ Oct 6 2010, 04:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->We needed help in the pen and we were about to have 6 starters. Hendry first says he picked Z because he was our best hope and he asked Z to do it for the team. Then he says that it was because he was the weakest link in the rotation. It doesn't take a conspiracy to be an idiot.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
THIS! THIS! THIS!
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So...it wasn't malicious...just idiotic. Works for me.
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Finally an armistice. Next topic...Lou demoted Z by taking him out of the 2007 NLDS. Discuss.
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<!--quoteo(post=116465:date=Oct 6 2010, 06:20 PM:name=funkster)-->QUOTE (funkster @ Oct 6 2010, 06:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Finally an armistice. Next topic...Lou demoted Z by taking him out of the 2007 NLDS. Discuss.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Conspiracy/Vampire attack.
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