Zambrano

[Butcher]

OK...I can see some instances where it might not be considered a demotion. But to Zambrano, who has been with the club for nearly a decade, it was absolutely a demotion.

[Ace]

<!--quoteo(post=116193:date=Oct 4 2010, 08:07 PM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Oct 4 2010, 08:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->OK...I can see some instances where it might not be considered a demotion. But to Zambrano, who has been with the club for nearly a decade, it was absolutely a demotion.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I think I get you now. To him, for sure. I guess I just meant that I'm not convinced the Cubs saw it that way - I think they just needed to open a spot, and (mistakenly) thought he was the best to move out of the rotation.

[Butcher]

<!--quoteo(post=116195:date=Oct 4 2010, 07:24 PM:name=Ace)-->QUOTE (Ace @ Oct 4 2010, 07:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=116193:date=Oct 4 2010, 08:07 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Oct 4 2010, 08:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->OK...I can see some instances where it might not be considered a demotion. But to Zambrano, who has been with the club for nearly a decade, it was absolutely a demotion.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I think I get you now. To him, for sure. I guess I just meant that I'm not convinced the Cubs saw it that way - I think they just needed to open a spot, and (mistakenly) thought he was the best to move out of the rotation.
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I'm not so sure they didn't think of it as a demotion, too. It seems they thought Silva/Wells/Gorz could give the club more quality innings than Z. They tried to paint a rosy picture of it, but if they couldn't see how it would be seen as a demotion (by Z and many others), then management, at the very least, wasn't thinking of the big picture.

[jstraw]

<!--quoteo(post=116191:date=Oct 4 2010, 07:00 PM:name=Ace)-->QUOTE (Ace @ Oct 4 2010, 07:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->So if the Cubs had moved Gorzelanny to the pen, it would have been a "demotion"? If a crappy starter is moved into a setup role and dominates, was he "demoted"? That's, of course, just silly. A demotion is when a guy sucks, and is bumped to the pen *because* of the suck - not because Ted Lilly returns from off-season shoulder surgery,

Look, guys, we agree that the outcome was the wrong move, so this is largely just semantics - but damnit, I'm sick of being at odds with you two. In every thread - it's you two, and me. Why can't we just get along?

(and yes, I recognize that's setting me up...)<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ask Sean Marshall if being in the 2011 rotation would be a promotion.

[veryzer]

<!--quoteo(post=116191:date=Oct 4 2010, 07:00 PM:name=Ace)-->QUOTE (Ace @ Oct 4 2010, 07:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->So if the Cubs had moved Gorzelanny to the pen, it would have been a "demotion"? If a crappy starter is moved into a setup role and dominates, was he "demoted"? That's, of course, just silly. A demotion is when a guy sucks, and is bumped to the pen *because* of the suck - not because Ted Lilly returns from off-season shoulder surgery,

Look, guys, we agree that the outcome was the wrong move, so this is largely just semantics - but damnit, I'm sick of being at odds with you two. In every thread - it's you two, and me. Why can't we just get along?

(and yes, I recognize that's setting me up...)<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

If Gorz gets moved from starter to middle relief, it's a demotion. Just because the name is different doesn't mean the situation is different. A demotion is a demotion.

[Ace]

<!--quoteo(post=116208:date=Oct 5 2010, 07:00 AM:name=veryzer)-->QUOTE (veryzer @ Oct 5 2010, 07:00 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=116191:date=Oct 4 2010, 07:00 PM:name=Ace)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ace @ Oct 4 2010, 07:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->So if the Cubs had moved Gorzelanny to the pen, it would have been a "demotion"? If a crappy starter is moved into a setup role and dominates, was he "demoted"? That's, of course, just silly. A demotion is when a guy sucks, and is bumped to the pen *because* of the suck - not because Ted Lilly returns from off-season shoulder surgery,

Look, guys, we agree that the outcome was the wrong move, so this is largely just semantics - but damnit, I'm sick of being at odds with you two. In every thread - it's you two, and me. Why can't we just get along?

(and yes, I recognize that's setting me up...)<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

If Gorz gets moved from starter to middle relief, it's a demotion. Just because the name is different doesn't mean the situation is different. A demotion is a demotion.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Ok, at least I now know what you mean. I disagree (like whoa), but at least now I get it.

[Butcher]

All you have to do is look at what an average starter earns vs. what an average middle reliever earns. Starters are seen as more valuable (and they are) than middle relievers. No matter how it was presented to Zambrano, it was a demotion. He knew it, Piniella knew it, Hendry knew it, Cubs fans knew it.

It's a demotion. There's no way around it.

[rok]

How is reduced playing time ever viewed as a good thing, for any player, let alone a starting pitcher with Z's track record, salary and years of service? Shit, even Gorz started bitching a bit when there was talk that he'd be moved back to the pen, and no one called him out for not being a team player.

[leonardsipes]

<!--quoteo(post=116183:date=Oct 4 2010, 05:04 PM:name=Ace)-->QUOTE (Ace @ Oct 4 2010, 05:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Question - why do we consider the Z to the pen move a "demotion"? Because he was pitching badly? That's not really the MAIN reason he was moved to the pen. Lilly was coming back and all the other starters were pitching well. If Gorzelanny - who had an ERA around 2 at the time - had been moved to the pen, would that have been a "demotion"? Of course not. It would have been a move that had to be made because there wasn't a spot for Lilly.

I pretty much think the same is true of Z. He wasn't demoted. He was chosen. It just happened to be the wrong choice (I thought it should have been Wells, but whateves).<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

When the move was made, I posted my support. The Cubs needed a set up man and had one extra starter. Four guys who's stock in trade was being decent over six innings, and Zambrano they guy who it seemed most likely could be dominant over 1 inning. It turned out to be a stupid move. One would hope, the people running the team were smarter than me, but I was in no position to complain.

Then, when Zambrano was at his low, Hendry said that they did not just move him to the bullpen because of his bad start, but based on his last 40 games. It pissed me off, that they put so much thought into what was a very bad decision. They really thought Zambrano was the worst of the 5. They really thought it was smart to demote the pitcher who they had the most money invested in, with the most fragile ego and who deserved to be treated with the most respect.

It was a very stupid move. It was sold as not a demotion, that Z was on board, and the best solution to solidify the bullpen. Even if all that was true, I think it would have turned out to be the wrong decision. Then when everthing goes to hell, Hendry basicly says, "see I demoted the right one."

[jstraw]

<!--quoteo(post=116248:date=Oct 5 2010, 12:58 PM:name=leonardsipes)-->QUOTE (leonardsipes @ Oct 5 2010, 12:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=116183:date=Oct 4 2010, 05:04 PM:name=Ace)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ace @ Oct 4 2010, 05:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Question - why do we consider the Z to the pen move a "demotion"? Because he was pitching badly? That's not really the MAIN reason he was moved to the pen. Lilly was coming back and all the other starters were pitching well. If Gorzelanny - who had an ERA around 2 at the time - had been moved to the pen, would that have been a "demotion"? Of course not. It would have been a move that had to be made because there wasn't a spot for Lilly.

I pretty much think the same is true of Z. He wasn't demoted. He was chosen. It just happened to be the wrong choice (I thought it should have been Wells, but whateves).<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

When the move was made, I posted my support. The Cubs needed a set up man and had one extra starter. Four guys who's stock in trade was being decent over six innings, and Zambrano they guy who it seemed most likely could be dominant over 1 inning. It turned out to be a stupid move. One would hope, the people running the team were smarter than me, but I was in no position to complain.

Then, when Zambrano was at his low, Hendry said that they did not just move him to the bullpen because of his bad start, but based on his last 40 games. It pissed me off, that they put so much thought into what was a very bad decision. They really thought Zambrano was the worst of the 5. They really thought it was smart to demote the pitcher who they had the most money invested in, with the most fragile ego and who deserved to be treated with the most respect.

It was a very stupid move. It was sold as not a demotion, that Z was on board, and the best solution to solidify the bullpen. Even if all that was true, I think it would have turned out to be the wrong decision. Then when everthing goes to hell, Hendry basicly says, "see I demoted the right one."
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is why I can't quit you.

[Ace]

I agree with everything everyone says - except, apparently, their definition of "demotion."

Demotion = you suck, and your role is going to be lesser because you suck.

Zambrano to the pen = Lilly is returning from injury, and we have six starters, so someone has to go to the pen, and we choose Zambrano because we feel like that's the best guy to go when considering all six.

If a guy sucks balls and for no other reason is kicked to the pen (or, duh, AAA), that's a demotion. The Cubs, however, believed they were simply changing Z's role because they had to.

[Ace]

And by the way, Lenny - I don't think the Cubs did it because Z was sucking as Hendry later claimed. I think Hendry is simply a guy who, after the fact, tries to recast his decisions (see, e.g., Cubs "had" to trade Milton Bradley "because he didn't produce," and not because he was a volatile douchebag who didn't hit well enough to overcome that fact).

[Giff]

<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->de·mote (d-mt)
tr.v. de·mot·ed, de·mot·ing, de·motes
To reduce in grade, rank, or status.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Reason has nothing to do whether it was a demotion or not. Zambrano's role was reduced in grade, rank, and status, thus he was demoted.

[Ace]

<!--quoteo(post=116295:date=Oct 5 2010, 09:01 PM:name=Giff)-->QUOTE (Giff @ Oct 5 2010, 09:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <!--quotec-->de·mote (d-mt)
tr.v. de·mot·ed, de·mot·ing, de·motes
To reduce in grade, rank, or status.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Reason has nothing to do whether it was a demotion or not. Zambrano's role was reduced in grade, rank, and status, thus he was demoted.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Leaving aside the fact that roles in the bullpen are not necessarily always a lower rank or status than starting (I'd guess that many closers and top setup men would not like to be put in the rotation, and I'd guess that some starters would view becoming a closer or 8th inning man as a lateral move), reducing the discussion to the dictionary definition of "demotion" completely misses the point - which is that the Cubs did not move Zambrano to the bullpen IN ORDER TO DEMOTE HIM. They ***HAD*** to move ***SOMEBODY*** to the bullpen. They chose Zambrano. I don't see that situation as a "demotion," regardless of the semantics surrounding what Webster has to say about the word "demotion." In other words - if we must be stuck on the dictionary definition - from the Cubs' perspective, they were not "reducing Z's grade, rank, or status;" they were changing his role. *From the Cubs' perspective* is the only point I've been making, and that part is wholly about reason.

This all, of course, is the most ridiculous discussion ever, since we all (that is to say, all of us in this recent spate) agree that Zambrano was the wrong choice (for whatever your reasons) to be moved to the pen at the time.

[Ace]

To restate: all I'm saying is I don't think the Cubs moved Z to the pen because he was sucking. I think it factored into the decision, but I think the primary reason for the move was that they had to move someone, and they felt Z was the best man for the job. I thought they were wrong then; obviously it bore out that they were wrong.