Zambrano

[Butcher]

<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->but he didn't pitch very well for a year, year and a half after such a great start to his career<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes -- he has gotten worse, but even his last two "bad" years Hendry keeps talking about were still above average.

I'm not sure we'll ever see the 2003-2007 Zambrano again, but I'll still gladly take the 2008-2009 Zambrano in my rotation.

[rok]

<!--quoteo(post=114291:date=Sep 15 2010, 09:47 AM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Sep 15 2010, 09:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=114285:date=Sep 15 2010, 08:35 AM:name=rok)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rok @ Sep 15 2010, 08:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=114275:date=Sep 15 2010, 07:12 AM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Sep 15 2010, 07:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=114204:date=Sep 14 2010, 02:40 PM:name=rok)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rok @ Sep 14 2010, 02:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/ne...id=5572170
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <!--quotec-->General manager Jim Hendry said Tuesday he would like to see pitcher Carlos Zambrano back in a Chicago Cubs uniform 2011.

"We hope so," Hendry said Tuesday on ESPN 101.1 FM in St. Louis. "He really seems to have gotten himself in a good spot. His last five or six starts have been outstanding. We've had Carlos since he was 16. I know people don't believe this but 90 percent of the time he's really been a pleasure to be around and a quality citizen."

"He has his snaps obviously that have led to some of his demise, but he didn't pitch very well for a year, year and a half after such a great start to his career. I think when we gave him the contract he was only 26 years old and one of the elite guys in the league."
.
.
"He isn't too old to get it together and be a heck of a pitcher again," Hendry said.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


But he did pitch well for that year, year and a half. Maybe he wasn't dominant, but he was good.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, not sure what he was watching. Z was actually really good through last August. Same for 2008. The fact that he finished poorly only tells me that something was physically wrong with Z and he ran out of gas. As a matter of fact, he has spent time on the DL over the past few seasons, so this nonsense about his demise being <b>purely</b> pitching related as Hendry is implying gets kind of old.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

If you go by WARP, except for a small bump in 2006, Zambrano has gotten progressively worse every single season since 2004. Hopfeully 2011 breaks that trend.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My only point, that others have made as well, is that even though he clearly isn't the same pitcher he once was, it doesn't mean that Z is bad or doesn't deserve a spot on the team, which was apparently Hendry's view. It seems the media and many fans overlook a lot of other former elite pitchers who are still productive, and single out Z as though his career is over, mostly because he is insane and went through a few bad stretches late in the 2008 season and 2009 season, and started this season off poorly. Those periods skewed his numbers a lot.

[Butcher]

<!--quoteo(post=114299:date=Sep 15 2010, 10:26 AM:name=rok)-->QUOTE (rok @ Sep 15 2010, 10:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=114291:date=Sep 15 2010, 09:47 AM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Sep 15 2010, 09:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=114285:date=Sep 15 2010, 08:35 AM:name=rok)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rok @ Sep 15 2010, 08:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=114275:date=Sep 15 2010, 07:12 AM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Sep 15 2010, 07:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=114204:date=Sep 14 2010, 02:40 PM:name=rok)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rok @ Sep 14 2010, 02:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/ne...id=5572170
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <!--quotec-->General manager Jim Hendry said Tuesday he would like to see pitcher Carlos Zambrano back in a Chicago Cubs uniform 2011.

"We hope so," Hendry said Tuesday on ESPN 101.1 FM in St. Louis. "He really seems to have gotten himself in a good spot. His last five or six starts have been outstanding. We've had Carlos since he was 16. I know people don't believe this but 90 percent of the time he's really been a pleasure to be around and a quality citizen."

"He has his snaps obviously that have led to some of his demise, but he didn't pitch very well for a year, year and a half after such a great start to his career. I think when we gave him the contract he was only 26 years old and one of the elite guys in the league."
.
.
"He isn't too old to get it together and be a heck of a pitcher again," Hendry said.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


But he did pitch well for that year, year and a half. Maybe he wasn't dominant, but he was good.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, not sure what he was watching. Z was actually really good through last August. Same for 2008. The fact that he finished poorly only tells me that something was physically wrong with Z and he ran out of gas. As a matter of fact, he has spent time on the DL over the past few seasons, so this nonsense about his demise being <b>purely</b> pitching related as Hendry is implying gets kind of old.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

If you go by WARP, except for a small bump in 2006, Zambrano has gotten progressively worse every single season since 2004. Hopfeully 2011 breaks that trend.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My only point, that others have made as well, is that even though he clearly isn't the same pitcher he once was, it doesn't mean that Z is bad or doesn't deserve a spot on the team, which was apparently Hendry's view. It seems the media and many fans overlook a lot of other former elite pitchers who are still productive, and single out Z as though his career is over, mostly because he is insane and went through a few bad stretches late in the 2008 season and 2009 season, and started this season off poorly. Those periods skewed his numbers a lot.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Most people's argument seems to be; "He's getting paid like an ace, but he doesn't pitch like an ace."

Which makes me want to pull my brain out through my nostrils.

[BT]

<!--quoteo(post=114304:date=Sep 15 2010, 10:47 AM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Sep 15 2010, 10:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=114299:date=Sep 15 2010, 10:26 AM:name=rok)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rok @ Sep 15 2010, 10:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=114291:date=Sep 15 2010, 09:47 AM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Sep 15 2010, 09:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=114285:date=Sep 15 2010, 08:35 AM:name=rok)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rok @ Sep 15 2010, 08:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=114275:date=Sep 15 2010, 07:12 AM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Sep 15 2010, 07:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=114204:date=Sep 14 2010, 02:40 PM:name=rok)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rok @ Sep 14 2010, 02:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/ne...id=5572170
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <!--quotec-->General manager Jim Hendry said Tuesday he would like to see pitcher Carlos Zambrano back in a Chicago Cubs uniform 2011.

"We hope so," Hendry said Tuesday on ESPN 101.1 FM in St. Louis. "He really seems to have gotten himself in a good spot. His last five or six starts have been outstanding. We've had Carlos since he was 16. I know people don't believe this but 90 percent of the time he's really been a pleasure to be around and a quality citizen."

"He has his snaps obviously that have led to some of his demise, but he didn't pitch very well for a year, year and a half after such a great start to his career. I think when we gave him the contract he was only 26 years old and one of the elite guys in the league."
.
.
"He isn't too old to get it together and be a heck of a pitcher again," Hendry said.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


But he did pitch well for that year, year and a half. Maybe he wasn't dominant, but he was good.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, not sure what he was watching. Z was actually really good through last August. Same for 2008. The fact that he finished poorly only tells me that something was physically wrong with Z and he ran out of gas. As a matter of fact, he has spent time on the DL over the past few seasons, so this nonsense about his demise being <b>purely</b> pitching related as Hendry is implying gets kind of old.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

If you go by WARP, except for a small bump in 2006, Zambrano has gotten progressively worse every single season since 2004. Hopfeully 2011 breaks that trend.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My only point, that others have made as well, is that even though he clearly isn't the same pitcher he once was, it doesn't mean that Z is bad or doesn't deserve a spot on the team, which was apparently Hendry's view. It seems the media and many fans overlook a lot of other former elite pitchers who are still productive, and single out Z as though his career is over, mostly because he is insane and went through a few bad stretches late in the 2008 season and 2009 season, and started this season off poorly. Those periods skewed his numbers a lot.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Most people's argument seems to be; "He's getting paid like an ace, but he doesn't pitch like an ace."

Which makes me want to pull my brain out through my nostrils.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

That's not remotely close to what I'm arguing. In fact, I'm not even arguing. However, if you go by the trends, Zambrano should be worse in 2011 than he was in 2010. Just as he was worse in 2010 than he was in 2009. And he was worse in 2009 than he was in 2008. And so on.

Also, he IS getting paid like and ace, and he ISN'T pitching like an ace. That doesn't mean he doesn't deserve a spot on the team (and contrary to what Rok said, I don't think Hendry believes that either).

[Butcher]

<!--quoteo(post=114309:date=Sep 15 2010, 11:11 AM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Sep 15 2010, 11:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=114304:date=Sep 15 2010, 10:47 AM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Sep 15 2010, 10:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=114299:date=Sep 15 2010, 10:26 AM:name=rok)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rok @ Sep 15 2010, 10:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=114291:date=Sep 15 2010, 09:47 AM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Sep 15 2010, 09:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=114285:date=Sep 15 2010, 08:35 AM:name=rok)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rok @ Sep 15 2010, 08:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=114275:date=Sep 15 2010, 07:12 AM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Sep 15 2010, 07:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=114204:date=Sep 14 2010, 02:40 PM:name=rok)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rok @ Sep 14 2010, 02:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/ne...id=5572170
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <!--quotec-->General manager Jim Hendry said Tuesday he would like to see pitcher Carlos Zambrano back in a Chicago Cubs uniform 2011.

"We hope so," Hendry said Tuesday on ESPN 101.1 FM in St. Louis. "He really seems to have gotten himself in a good spot. His last five or six starts have been outstanding. We've had Carlos since he was 16. I know people don't believe this but 90 percent of the time he's really been a pleasure to be around and a quality citizen."

"He has his snaps obviously that have led to some of his demise, but he didn't pitch very well for a year, year and a half after such a great start to his career. I think when we gave him the contract he was only 26 years old and one of the elite guys in the league."
.
.
"He isn't too old to get it together and be a heck of a pitcher again," Hendry said.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


But he did pitch well for that year, year and a half. Maybe he wasn't dominant, but he was good.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, not sure what he was watching. Z was actually really good through last August. Same for 2008. The fact that he finished poorly only tells me that something was physically wrong with Z and he ran out of gas. As a matter of fact, he has spent time on the DL over the past few seasons, so this nonsense about his demise being <b>purely</b> pitching related as Hendry is implying gets kind of old.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

If you go by WARP, except for a small bump in 2006, Zambrano has gotten progressively worse every single season since 2004. Hopfeully 2011 breaks that trend.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My only point, that others have made as well, is that even though he clearly isn't the same pitcher he once was, it doesn't mean that Z is bad or doesn't deserve a spot on the team, which was apparently Hendry's view. It seems the media and many fans overlook a lot of other former elite pitchers who are still productive, and single out Z as though his career is over, mostly because he is insane and went through a few bad stretches late in the 2008 season and 2009 season, and started this season off poorly. Those periods skewed his numbers a lot.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Most people's argument seems to be; "He's getting paid like an ace, but he doesn't pitch like an ace."

Which makes me want to pull my brain out through my nostrils.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

That's not remotely close to what I'm arguing.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Believe it or not, I wasn't referring to you in this particular post. This is why I said "most people" and not "BT."

You've got a hair trigger this morning, dude.

[veryzer]

Rok gets it. Yes, he isn't as good as he was, but he's still good. Always has been. Throw injuries into the mix and maybe he does improve next year. Hopefully he'll get more than 4 games to prove it.

[Butcher]

Another solid outing from Z.

[veryzer]

<!--quoteo(post=114354:date=Sep 15 2010, 09:56 PM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Sep 15 2010, 09:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Another solid outing from Z.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


That's because Zambrano is good. Always has been.

[1060Ivy]

Now that Z haters have disappeared into their cubby holes - it's time for Z to bring back his retirement talk. Will not be surprised that by next April, those folks will be back asking Z to retire immediately.

http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/ne...id=5578266

[veryzer]

<!--quoteo(post=114369:date=Sep 16 2010, 07:09 AM:name=1060Ivy)-->QUOTE (1060Ivy @ Sep 16 2010, 07:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Now that Z haters have disappeared into their cubby holes - it's time for Z to bring back his retirement talk. Will not be surprised that by next April, those folks will be back asking Z to retire immediately.

http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/ne...id=5578266<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


In his last 7 starts, Zambrano is 6-0 with a 1.37 ERA. Don't know about that pesky WHIP, but I'm of the belief that ERA does matter, and you can't get much better than his has been.

[Coach]

He's really coming through lately in these pressure packed situations.

[veryzer]

<!--quoteo(post=114373:date=Sep 16 2010, 07:52 AM:name=Coach)-->QUOTE (Coach @ Sep 16 2010, 07:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->He's really coming through lately in these pressure packed situations.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Is it his fault these games don't mean anything? He's winning the games he's pitching. What more can he do?

[rok]

<!--quoteo(post=114374:date=Sep 16 2010, 07:55 AM:name=veryzer)-->QUOTE (veryzer @ Sep 16 2010, 07:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=114373:date=Sep 16 2010, 07:52 AM:name=Coach)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coach @ Sep 16 2010, 07:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->He's really coming through lately in these pressure packed situations.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Is it his fault these games don't mean anything? He's winning the games he's pitching. What more can he do?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's always gonna be something, no matter how he performs. Comes with the territory of being Z.

[Coach]

Yep, he's always been such a great performer and teammate. It's hard to find faults with him.

[rok]

<!--quoteo(post=114381:date=Sep 16 2010, 09:25 AM:name=Coach)-->QUOTE (Coach @ Sep 16 2010, 09:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Yep, he's always been such a great performer and teammate. It's hard to find faults with him.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You take the good with the bad. More times than not, he's been productive and a good citizen. Just ask Hendry. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif[/img]