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<!--quoteo(post=112973:date=Aug 31 2010, 12:40 PM:name=KBwsb)-->QUOTE (KBwsb @ Aug 31 2010, 12:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=112969:date=Aug 31 2010, 11:35 AM:name=Ace)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ace @ Aug 31 2010, 11:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa. One point to make: no one (to my knowledge) has ever even suggested that the reason Aramis was sucking had anything to do with where he was batting. He was sucking because he was sucking/hurt. What people - including me - said about his spot in the order was that it was a grand mistake by Lou to keep hitting Aramis 3/4 when he was clearly sucking.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or to do you one better...he was sucking because he was allowed to play <i>at all</i>, despite having a thumb injury. And that is CLEARLY on Lou and Jim, and let the insults rain down, I don't care, because Jim has an 8-year history of playing down injuries.
I can see where a thumb injury would make it difficult to handle a baseball bat, but I'm sure I'll be told otherwise.
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yeah, this is what I want to do. Get into a huge argument about a passing comment that was utterly and completely peripheral to my main point.
You turned me around KB. ARam BEGGED to come out of the lineup, but Lou and Jim (cackling maniacally I'm sure) forced him into the lineup. What they should have done was force him out of the lineup, put our other really good 3b in, and the season would have been saved. Yet again, IT'S ALL ON LOU AND JIM.
I wish that I believed in Fate. I wish I didn't sleep so late. I used to be carried in the arms of cheerleaders.
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<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->ARam begged to come out of the lineup, but Lou and Jim (<b>cackling maniacally I'm sure</b>) forced him into the lineup.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
[img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif[/img]
That was good, I admit.
Still: injured player?
Let him heal, especially when it's pretty obvious that it's <i>drastically</i> affecting his hitting.
There's nothing better than to realize that the good things about youth don't end with youth itself. It's a matter of realizing that life can be renewed every day you get out of bed without baggage. It's tough to get there, but it's better than the dark thoughts. -Lance
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That said, I am certainly not in the camp that blames the entire 2010 debacle on Lou and Jim. Frankly, I don't think anyone is saying that. A lot of weird things happened this year, and many of them were totally random. The handling of Aramis was questionable, and the Z thing was highly strange, but there were certainly other issues with the cubs this year.
There's nothing better than to realize that the good things about youth don't end with youth itself. It's a matter of realizing that life can be renewed every day you get out of bed without baggage. It's tough to get there, but it's better than the dark thoughts. -Lance
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This team was constructed in such a way that the window of opportunity was <i>supposed</i> to close around the time that the core group of Z/Lee/ARam started to reach the downside of their careers or once their contracts expired, whichever happened first. For whatever odd reasons, it turned out their collective expiration date was a bit sooner than anticipated. Everything else that has transpired since the 2008 playoffs makes very little sense to me, so I try not to look for answers, because there aren't any.
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<!--quoteo(post=112948:date=Aug 31 2010, 10:02 AM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Aug 31 2010, 10:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=112941:date=Aug 31 2010, 09:44 AM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Aug 31 2010, 09:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=112940:date=Aug 31 2010, 09:39 AM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Aug 31 2010, 09:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=112927:date=Aug 31 2010, 08:01 AM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Aug 31 2010, 08:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=112924:date=Aug 31 2010, 07:32 AM:name=Coldneck)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coldneck @ Aug 31 2010, 07:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I love me some Z. It may not be pretty, but it's the results that count.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's exactly right. Maybe next year, with a good manager and possibly a good GM, we'll see the old Z. Or at the very least, maybe he'll be given more than 4 games to pitch out of whatever problems he may have.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yeah, but now Colvin isn't playing well. And since we've determined that player performance is clearly based on who the manager is, does that mean we have to bring Lou back so Colvin will be better? But then what happens to Zambrano?
It's all so complicated.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is that really what you took out of that? That Zambrano sucked because Lou was the manager? Really?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I just find it amazing how reluctant people are (not just you, not just about Zambrano) to pin the blame for poor play on the actual player. Aram has sucked this year. Not because Hendry gave him a big contract. Not because Lou batted him 3rd or 4th. Because he didn't play well. I blame ARam.
Zambrano has been up and down this year (although I think Ace makes some good points about his "ups"). I don't blame Hendry. I don't blame Lou. I blame Zambrano. now that he is doing better, I don't credit Quade. I don't credit Hendry. I credit Zambrano.
So I'm not overly concerned with who the manager and GM is next year, if we are discussing how well or poorly Zambrano will do. I'm concerned with Zambrano. It's up to him.
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I apologize for not being coherent. I thought we'd been through this argument enough times that bt would know exactly what I'm talking about. Scarey too. In fact, I still think that's the case.
But let me reword it so that it's perfectly clear: Hopefully next year we'll have management that will allow Zambrano to work through any problems he may have in the first 4 games of the upcoming season. You know, without overreacting and demoting him...after four games.
Wait a minute, that was kind of what I said at the end of my original post. Now I'm confused.
Wang.
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<!--quoteo(post=112999:date=Aug 31 2010, 06:54 PM:name=veryzer)-->QUOTE (veryzer @ Aug 31 2010, 06:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=112948:date=Aug 31 2010, 10:02 AM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Aug 31 2010, 10:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=112941:date=Aug 31 2010, 09:44 AM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Aug 31 2010, 09:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=112940:date=Aug 31 2010, 09:39 AM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Aug 31 2010, 09:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=112927:date=Aug 31 2010, 08:01 AM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Aug 31 2010, 08:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=112924:date=Aug 31 2010, 07:32 AM:name=Coldneck)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coldneck @ Aug 31 2010, 07:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I love me some Z. It may not be pretty, but it's the results that count.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's exactly right. Maybe next year, with a good manager and possibly a good GM, we'll see the old Z. Or at the very least, maybe he'll be given more than 4 games to pitch out of whatever problems he may have.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yeah, but now Colvin isn't playing well. And since we've determined that player performance is clearly based on who the manager is, does that mean we have to bring Lou back so Colvin will be better? But then what happens to Zambrano?
It's all so complicated.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is that really what you took out of that? That Zambrano sucked because Lou was the manager? Really?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I just find it amazing how reluctant people are (not just you, not just about Zambrano) to pin the blame for poor play on the actual player. Aram has sucked this year. Not because Hendry gave him a big contract. Not because Lou batted him 3rd or 4th. Because he didn't play well. I blame ARam.
Zambrano has been up and down this year (although I think Ace makes some good points about his "ups"). I don't blame Hendry. I don't blame Lou. I blame Zambrano. now that he is doing better, I don't credit Quade. I don't credit Hendry. I credit Zambrano.
So I'm not overly concerned with who the manager and GM is next year, if we are discussing how well or poorly Zambrano will do. I'm concerned with Zambrano. It's up to him.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I apologize for not being coherent. I thought we'd been through this argument enough times that bt would know exactly what I'm talking about. Scarey too. In fact, I still think that's the case.
But let me reword it so that it's perfectly clear: Hopefully next year we'll have management that will allow Zambrano to work through any problems he may have in the first 4 games of the upcoming season. You know, without overreacting and demoting him...after four games.
Wait a minute, that was kind of what I said at the end of my original post. Now I'm confused.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know your position, but I can't read BTs mind. I could understand why he would interpret it the way he did given how you worded it. That's all I'm saying. I'm sorry if I offended you in any way.
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<!--quoteo(post=113024:date=Sep 1 2010, 09:36 AM:name=Scarey)-->QUOTE (Scarey @ Sep 1 2010, 09:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=112999:date=Aug 31 2010, 06:54 PM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Aug 31 2010, 06:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=112948:date=Aug 31 2010, 10:02 AM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Aug 31 2010, 10:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=112941:date=Aug 31 2010, 09:44 AM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Aug 31 2010, 09:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=112940:date=Aug 31 2010, 09:39 AM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Aug 31 2010, 09:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=112927:date=Aug 31 2010, 08:01 AM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Aug 31 2010, 08:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=112924:date=Aug 31 2010, 07:32 AM:name=Coldneck)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coldneck @ Aug 31 2010, 07:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I love me some Z. It may not be pretty, but it's the results that count.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's exactly right. Maybe next year, with a good manager and possibly a good GM, we'll see the old Z. Or at the very least, maybe he'll be given more than 4 games to pitch out of whatever problems he may have.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yeah, but now Colvin isn't playing well. And since we've determined that player performance is clearly based on who the manager is, does that mean we have to bring Lou back so Colvin will be better? But then what happens to Zambrano?
It's all so complicated.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is that really what you took out of that? That Zambrano sucked because Lou was the manager? Really?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I just find it amazing how reluctant people are (not just you, not just about Zambrano) to pin the blame for poor play on the actual player. Aram has sucked this year. Not because Hendry gave him a big contract. Not because Lou batted him 3rd or 4th. Because he didn't play well. I blame ARam.
Zambrano has been up and down this year (although I think Ace makes some good points about his "ups"). I don't blame Hendry. I don't blame Lou. I blame Zambrano. now that he is doing better, I don't credit Quade. I don't credit Hendry. I credit Zambrano.
So I'm not overly concerned with who the manager and GM is next year, if we are discussing how well or poorly Zambrano will do. I'm concerned with Zambrano. It's up to him.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I apologize for not being coherent. I thought we'd been through this argument enough times that bt would know exactly what I'm talking about. Scarey too. In fact, I still think that's the case.
But let me reword it so that it's perfectly clear: Hopefully next year we'll have management that will allow Zambrano to work through any problems he may have in the first 4 games of the upcoming season. You know, without overreacting and demoting him...after four games.
Wait a minute, that was kind of what I said at the end of my original post. Now I'm confused.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know your position, but I can't read BTs mind. I could understand why he would interpret it the way he did given how you worded it. That's all I'm saying. I'm sorry if I offended you in any way.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow, did I come off like I was offended?
Wang.
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Don't look now, but Zambo's been looking pretty strong lately.
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<!--quoteo(post=113464:date=Sep 4 2010, 04:08 PM:name=funkster)-->QUOTE (funkster @ Sep 4 2010, 04:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Don't look now, but Zambo's been looking pretty strong lately.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If he doesn't pitch like an ace, he doesn't deserve a spot in the rotation. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rolleyes.gif[/img]
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All joking aside, he has a 2.25 ERA, 34K in 40 IP and a BAA around .240 since the all-star break. The main are of concern, as others have mentioned, is wildness even during this recent streak of quality starts. His WHIP is around 1.5 for the 2nd half, so Z still has some work to do, but I'm enjoying his success.
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<!--quoteo(post=113465:date=Sep 4 2010, 04:22 PM:name=rok)-->QUOTE (rok @ Sep 4 2010, 04:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=113464:date=Sep 4 2010, 04:08 PM:name=funkster)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (funkster @ Sep 4 2010, 04:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Don't look now, but Zambo's been looking pretty strong lately.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If he doesn't pitch like an ace, he doesn't deserve a spot in the rotation. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rolleyes.gif[/img]
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Seriously, for what he's getting paid...let him be someone else's solid #3.
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<!--quoteo(post=113468:date=Sep 4 2010, 04:40 PM:name=jstraw)-->QUOTE (jstraw @ Sep 4 2010, 04:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=113465:date=Sep 4 2010, 04:22 PM:name=rok)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rok @ Sep 4 2010, 04:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=113464:date=Sep 4 2010, 04:08 PM:name=funkster)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (funkster @ Sep 4 2010, 04:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Don't look now, but Zambo's been looking pretty strong lately.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If he doesn't pitch like an ace, he doesn't deserve a spot in the rotation. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rolleyes.gif[/img]
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Seriously, for what he's getting paid...let him be someone else's solid #3.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not if we have to take on someone else's garbage or pay the majority of his salary in order to trade him. No thanks.
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<!--quoteo(post=113469:date=Sep 4 2010, 04:47 PM:name=rok)-->QUOTE (rok @ Sep 4 2010, 04:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=113468:date=Sep 4 2010, 04:40 PM:name=jstraw)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jstraw @ Sep 4 2010, 04:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=113465:date=Sep 4 2010, 04:22 PM:name=rok)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rok @ Sep 4 2010, 04:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=113464:date=Sep 4 2010, 04:08 PM:name=funkster)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (funkster @ Sep 4 2010, 04:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Don't look now, but Zambo's been looking pretty strong lately.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If he doesn't pitch like an ace, he doesn't deserve a spot in the rotation. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rolleyes.gif[/img]
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Seriously, for what he's getting paid...let him be someone else's solid #3.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not if we have to take on someone else's garbage or pay the majority of his salary in order to trade him. No thanks.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was kidding. I want him to be a keeper.
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Pure and simple Z has been pitching extremely well even if it's against some pretty bad teams. He had men on 1st and 3rd today with 0 outs and the heart of the Mets order up - classic situation where a pitcher can cave - he battled, gave up 1 run but came through much better than I expected. Maybe it is just that it doesn't matter as the cubs are out of the running but it did impress me that z still had heart and isn't mailing the remainder of the season/cubs career in.
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He's definitely not mailing it in which I like to see. I mentioned last week I saw something watching him against Washington that just seemed different than the Z I had seen the last couple years. Not necessarily stuff wise, just confidence and overall attitude. As much as I thought it would be a disaster, I have enjoyed watching him these last few starts.
Dylan McKay is my hero
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