Zambrano

[Butcher]

<!--quoteo(post=112286:date=Aug 25 2010, 04:02 PM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Aug 25 2010, 04:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=112257:date=Aug 25 2010, 01:49 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Aug 25 2010, 01:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=112254:date=Aug 25 2010, 01:45 PM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Aug 25 2010, 01:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I'm pretty much done arguing, and it appears this has all been settled [snip] .<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So...I win?
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You already declared that. I didn't think it was still open to discussion.
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Good. I'm glad it's settled.

[Mikey]

<!--quoteo(post=112287:date=Aug 25 2010, 04:12 PM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Aug 25 2010, 04:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=112286:date=Aug 25 2010, 04:02 PM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Aug 25 2010, 04:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=112257:date=Aug 25 2010, 01:49 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Aug 25 2010, 01:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=112254:date=Aug 25 2010, 01:45 PM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Aug 25 2010, 01:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I'm pretty much done arguing, and it appears this has all been settled [snip] .<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So...I win?
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You already declared that. I didn't think it was still open to discussion.
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Good. I'm glad it's settled.
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Ok, now lets open this back up for discussion.

[veryzer]

<!--quoteo(post=112285:date=Aug 25 2010, 04:01 PM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Aug 25 2010, 04:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=112263:date=Aug 25 2010, 02:11 PM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Aug 25 2010, 02:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=112240:date=Aug 25 2010, 12:06 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Aug 25 2010, 12:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=112235:date=Aug 25 2010, 11:02 AM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Aug 25 2010, 11:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=112206:date=Aug 25 2010, 05:48 AM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Aug 25 2010, 05:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->You know what? Zambrano might still be good.

Makes me wonder what kind of season he could have had if not for the absolutely retarded decision to put him in the bullpen.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

i knew this was coming.

any time Zambrano does anything bad this year it will be because of the way he was handled. Any time Zambrano does anything good, it will be because he is a good pitcher. He comes back from the suspension and he sucks, it's because they suspended him. He comes back from the suspension and he's good, it's DESPITE the suspension.

Management decision can only affect a pitcher in the negative sense. That's how it works I guess.
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None of Z's results (good or bad) from here on reflect on the wisdom (or lack thereof) of the decision. The decision had to be based on the pitchers' track records to that point. Zambrano had the best track record and he deserved the breathing room to right the ship. End of story. I think this has been made sufficiently clear. Zambrano is a veteran with a solid track record. Wells is in his second year. Silva came off the two worst seasons of any pitcher in history. Gorz has had one good season. It was a no-brainer, and yet the Cubs screwed it up. Total knee-jerk, desperate move.
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Exactly. To me, this is irrefutable.

And no one ever said he sucked because he was demoted or suspended, only that demoting him and suspending were bad ideas. Which they were.
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Really? I could have sworn someone on this thread said something along the lines that Zambrano could have had a good season if the Cubs hadn't ruined it by taking him out of the rotation.
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Yeah, I said that, but the way i said it is different than the way you took it.

I'm saying that had zambrano been allowed to pitch through his early season struggles, he may have righted the ship, as he's done in the past.

Actually, the more I think about it, the way I said it and the way you took it ARE the same. Fuck it, the Cubs ruined Zambrano with that retarded demotion and the subsequent suspension. I do believe that.

[bz]

We panicked early. Real early. We ended up sucking so it doesn't really matter. But none of it matters. Our SP has been good all season. Our offense sucked. And for the second season in a row our team MVP was nowhere to be found...Ramirez. He is what we've built our team around.

[Auz]

Z just isn't the same pitcher he used to be. His fastballs the other night were rarely getting into the 90's but on the other hand they did have a lot of movement to them. But when he was dominating a few years ago, he was throwing them in the mid 90's with lots of movement. His sliders were ok, but did hang a few. Any other team could have knocked more than a few off him. But one thing I have noticed is that he isn't throwing in the same arm slot that he used to. Maybe something is wrong with him physically (on top of mentally) or his mechanics are fucked.

One thing for certain is that we can't rely on him being a 1 or 2 pitcher next year. Fourth or Fifth at max.

[satchel]

<!--quoteo(post=112325:date=Aug 25 2010, 11:47 PM:name=Dingo)-->QUOTE (Dingo @ Aug 25 2010, 11:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->One thing for certain is that we can't rely on him being a 1 or 2 pitcher next year. Fourth or Fifth at max.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

with a #1 salary.... add to that fuk and soriano and we have a cool $55 million with a very shitty return.... fuck the pirates payroll is 35... and they seem to get the same production from their players as the cubs get from fuk and soriano... awesome!

Who again wants hendry to stay?

[veryzer]

So Zambrano evens his record at 6-6 and lowers his ERA to 4.36. A strong September and he ends up having a pretty decent year, just like he always has. Makes me wonder what if....

[Ace]

I know I keep ringing the same bell, but the fact that he gave up no earned runs again doesn't tell the whole story - he's still throwing way too many pitches and allowing way too many baserunners.

[Coldneck]

I love me some Z. It may not be pretty, but it's the results that count.

[veryzer]

<!--quoteo(post=112924:date=Aug 31 2010, 07:32 AM:name=Coldneck)-->QUOTE (Coldneck @ Aug 31 2010, 07:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I love me some Z. It may not be pretty, but it's the results that count.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

That's exactly right. Maybe next year, with a good manager and possibly a good GM, we'll see the old Z. Or at the very least, maybe he'll be given more than 4 games to pitch out of whatever problems he may have.

[Coldneck]

Let me clairfy, I don't expect Z to be good, just adequate, and that will be sorely needed on next years team.

[rok]

I will always love Z.

[vitaminB]

<!--quoteo(post=112924:date=Aug 31 2010, 08:32 AM:name=Coldneck)-->QUOTE (Coldneck @ Aug 31 2010, 08:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I love me some Z. It may not be pretty, but it's the results that count.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

The results are he pitched only 5.1 innings, exposing this really bad bullpen to over 3 innings of work.

[rok]

<!--quoteo(post=112937:date=Aug 31 2010, 08:53 AM:name=vitaminB)-->QUOTE (vitaminB @ Aug 31 2010, 08:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=112924:date=Aug 31 2010, 08:32 AM:name=Coldneck)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coldneck @ Aug 31 2010, 08:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I love me some Z. It may not be pretty, but it's the results that count.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

The results are he pitched only 5.1 innings, exposing this really bad bullpen to over 3 innings of work.
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They've already been exposed multiple times. Let the kids play. The experience could pay dividends next season. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rolleyes.gif[/img]




Edit: There was no need for the smiley. No sarcasm intended.

[BT]

<!--quoteo(post=112927:date=Aug 31 2010, 08:01 AM:name=veryzer)-->QUOTE (veryzer @ Aug 31 2010, 08:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=112924:date=Aug 31 2010, 07:32 AM:name=Coldneck)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coldneck @ Aug 31 2010, 07:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I love me some Z. It may not be pretty, but it's the results that count.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

That's exactly right. Maybe next year, with a good manager and possibly a good GM, we'll see the old Z. Or at the very least, maybe he'll be given more than 4 games to pitch out of whatever problems he may have.
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yeah, but now Colvin isn't playing well. And since we've determined that player performance is clearly based on who the manager is, does that mean we have to bring Lou back so Colvin will be better? But then what happens to Zambrano?

It's all so complicated.