Zambrano

[1060Ivy]

What's wrong with revisionist history? Some of our countries greatest leaders employed it in times of crisis such as Bluto from Animal House "Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?"

BTW, I used to be able to perform simple math even with a spreadsheet staring at me for far too many hours.

[willis]

Last night was a solid start, albeit against the Nationals. But the biggest improvement was his walks (I think he walked 1?). His velocity was still mainly 88-90. I saw 91 a couple times and 92 I think once. But he just looked different to me out there today than he has...just seemed to have a little more swag. Maybe that isn't the case and I am just seeing things but it seemed that way at least. Bad team-yes. But hopefully he can use this to continue to build back his confidence and keep getting better as the season progresses.

[BT]

<!--quoteo(post=112206:date=Aug 25 2010, 05:48 AM:name=veryzer)-->QUOTE (veryzer @ Aug 25 2010, 05:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->You know what? Zambrano might still be good.

Makes me wonder what kind of season he could have had if not for the absolutely retarded decision to put him in the bullpen.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

i knew this was coming.

any time Zambrano does anything bad this year it will be because of the way he was handled. Any time Zambrano does anything good, it will be because he is a good pitcher. He comes back from the suspension and he sucks, it's because they suspended him. He comes back from the suspension and he's good, it's DESPITE the suspension.

Management decision can only affect a pitcher in the negative sense. That's how it works I guess.

[Coldneck]

<!--quoteo(post=112235:date=Aug 25 2010, 12:02 PM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Aug 25 2010, 12:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=112206:date=Aug 25 2010, 05:48 AM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Aug 25 2010, 05:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->You know what? Zambrano might still be good.

Makes me wonder what kind of season he could have had if not for the absolutely retarded decision to put him in the bullpen.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

i knew this was coming.

any time Zambrano does anything bad this year it will be because of the way he was handled. Any time Zambrano does anything good, it will be because he is a good pitcher. He comes back from the suspension and he sucks, it's because they suspended him. He comes back from the suspension and he's good, it's DESPITE the suspension.

Management decision can only affect a pitcher in the negative sense. That's how it works I guess.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow, I find myself agreeing with BT.

[The Dude]

<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->Zambrano: Bullpen move was 'too desperate'
August 25, 2010 10:29 AM | No Comments
By Paul Sullivan
WASHINGTON -- Before flying to Venezuela to deal with a family situation, Carlos Zambrano finally admitted his true feelings on being sent to the bullpen in April.
With four starts under his belt since his second return, Zambrano has a 2.25 earned-run average. His splitter, slider and fastball were all working for him Tuesday, and he's improved in every start.
Does he ever wonder if he'd be pitching like this had he stayed in the rotation from the outset?
"What do you think?" he replied. "The situation we were in, when they moved me to the bullpen, it was kind of weird. But at the same time, they needed somebody in the bullpen in the eighth inning. We were losing a lot of games in the seventh, eighth innings. I think from my perspective we get too desperate too soon. To make that decision, that's OK. But you know what? I'm trying to finish the season strong and trying to be consistent and prepare for this last month."
The Cubs were 5-9 at the time and John Grabow and Esmailin Caridad had failed as set-up men for Carlos Marmol. Sean Marshall eventually filled the role admirably, but not until the ill-fated experiment to move Zambrano.
At the time, Zambrano thought it was temporary, saying former manager Lou Piniella told him "when they find a guy and trade (for a) guy and get that guy here, I will be back to the rotation."


He played the good soldier, even while his handlers were criticizing the decision behind closed doors.
A trade never developed, and after five weeks, Zambrano was moved back into the rotation on June 4 in Houston. By that time the Cubs were 5 games under .500 and 6 ½ games out of first. Zambrano made only five starts before the infamous dugout blow-up at the Cell on June 25, leading to anger management therapy and a second demotion to the bullpen.
But were the Cubs "too desperate" in moving him so early in the season, as Zambrano believes? Piniella took the blame for the decision, though general manager Jim Hendry endorsed it and Piniella later said pitching coach Larry Rothschild felt it would bring back Zambrano's velocity.
It's all hindsight now, but would the Cubs have been better off leaving Zambrano in the rotation and finding another right-hander to share the set-up role with Marshall? Or would they have struggled anyways because the offense was never in gear in the first half?
These are questions that can never be answered. But at least we know how Zambrano feels.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Very impressed Sullivan managed to not Rip Z at all in this article.

[Butcher]

<!--quoteo(post=112235:date=Aug 25 2010, 11:02 AM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Aug 25 2010, 11:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=112206:date=Aug 25 2010, 05:48 AM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Aug 25 2010, 05:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->You know what? Zambrano might still be good.

Makes me wonder what kind of season he could have had if not for the absolutely retarded decision to put him in the bullpen.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

i knew this was coming.

any time Zambrano does anything bad this year it will be because of the way he was handled. Any time Zambrano does anything good, it will be because he is a good pitcher. He comes back from the suspension and he sucks, it's because they suspended him. He comes back from the suspension and he's good, it's DESPITE the suspension.

Management decision can only affect a pitcher in the negative sense. That's how it works I guess.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
None of Z's results (good or bad) from here on reflect on the wisdom (or lack thereof) of the decision. The decision had to be based on the pitchers' track records to that point. Zambrano had the best track record and he deserved the breathing room to right the ship. End of story. I think this has been made sufficiently clear. Zambrano is a veteran with a solid track record. Wells is in his second year. Silva came off the two worst seasons of any pitcher in history. Gorz has had one good season. It was a no-brainer, and yet the Cubs screwed it up. Total knee-jerk, desperate move.

[leonardsipes]

<!--quoteo(post=112240:date=Aug 25 2010, 12:06 PM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Aug 25 2010, 12:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=112235:date=Aug 25 2010, 11:02 AM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Aug 25 2010, 11:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=112206:date=Aug 25 2010, 05:48 AM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Aug 25 2010, 05:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->You know what? Zambrano might still be good.

Makes me wonder what kind of season he could have had if not for the absolutely retarded decision to put him in the bullpen.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

i knew this was coming.

any time Zambrano does anything bad this year it will be because of the way he was handled. Any time Zambrano does anything good, it will be because he is a good pitcher. He comes back from the suspension and he sucks, it's because they suspended him. He comes back from the suspension and he's good, it's DESPITE the suspension.

Management decision can only affect a pitcher in the negative sense. That's how it works I guess.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
None of Z's results (good or bad) from here on reflect on the wisdom (or lack thereof) of the decision. The decision had to be based on the pitchers' track records to that point. Zambrano had the best track record and he deserved the breathing room to right the ship. End of story. I think this has been made sufficiently clear. Zambrano is a veteran with a solid track record. Wells is in his second year. Silva came off the two worst seasons of any pitcher in history. Gorz has had one good season. It was a no-brainer, and yet the Cubs screwed it up. Total knee-jerk, desperate move.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

At the time, I supported the decision. I was wrong. At the time, management said, it was not about how Z was pitching, but that he was the BEST option for the pen. I bought that. After the suspension, Hendry said, that they looked at Z's last 50 starts and decided he did not deserve to be in the rotation. Very wrong.

1. A guy is one of the highest paid players on your team. Don't fuck with him. Too much money invested.
2. A guy has been a mainstay of your rotation for 7 years. Don't fuck with him. Show some respect.
3. A guy is at least borderline, possibly bat sit crazy. Don't fuck with him. Common sens.

A spur of the moment solution, to a problem, I can forgive them. The idea that they put thought into what turned out to be a horrible decision, pisses me off.

[BT]

I'm pretty much done arguing, and it appears this has all been settled, at least in Butch's mind, but I will say I couldn't disagree with this any more than I do.

<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->1. A guy is one of the highest paid players on your team. Don't fuck with him. Too much money invested.
2. A guy has been a mainstay of your rotation for 7 years. Don't fuck with him. Show some respect.
3. A guy is at least borderline, possibly bat sit crazy. Don't fuck with him. Common sens.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Playing a guy because of his salary, his history, or his mental fragility are all AWFUL ways to run a franchise. You play a guy because he currently gives you the best chance of winning. Period.

[rok]

Well, it is kind of hard to argue against #3 when you are dealing with someone as insane as Z at least, though with #1 and #2 it isn't always black and white, so I'll give you those two.

[Butcher]

<!--quoteo(post=112254:date=Aug 25 2010, 01:45 PM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Aug 25 2010, 01:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I'm pretty much done arguing, and it appears this has all been settled [snip] .<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So...I win?

[veryzer]

<!--quoteo(post=112240:date=Aug 25 2010, 12:06 PM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Aug 25 2010, 12:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=112235:date=Aug 25 2010, 11:02 AM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Aug 25 2010, 11:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=112206:date=Aug 25 2010, 05:48 AM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Aug 25 2010, 05:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->You know what? Zambrano might still be good.

Makes me wonder what kind of season he could have had if not for the absolutely retarded decision to put him in the bullpen.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

i knew this was coming.

any time Zambrano does anything bad this year it will be because of the way he was handled. Any time Zambrano does anything good, it will be because he is a good pitcher. He comes back from the suspension and he sucks, it's because they suspended him. He comes back from the suspension and he's good, it's DESPITE the suspension.

Management decision can only affect a pitcher in the negative sense. That's how it works I guess.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
None of Z's results (good or bad) from here on reflect on the wisdom (or lack thereof) of the decision. The decision had to be based on the pitchers' track records to that point. Zambrano had the best track record and he deserved the breathing room to right the ship. End of story. I think this has been made sufficiently clear. Zambrano is a veteran with a solid track record. Wells is in his second year. Silva came off the two worst seasons of any pitcher in history. Gorz has had one good season. It was a no-brainer, and yet the Cubs screwed it up. Total knee-jerk, desperate move.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


Exactly. To me, this is irrefutable.

And no one ever said he sucked because he was demoted or suspended, only that demoting him and suspending were bad ideas. Which they were.

[veryzer]

<!--quoteo(post=112240:date=Aug 25 2010, 12:06 PM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Aug 25 2010, 12:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=112235:date=Aug 25 2010, 11:02 AM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Aug 25 2010, 11:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=112206:date=Aug 25 2010, 05:48 AM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Aug 25 2010, 05:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->You know what? Zambrano might still be good.

Makes me wonder what kind of season he could have had if not for the absolutely retarded decision to put him in the bullpen.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

i knew this was coming.

any time Zambrano does anything bad this year it will be because of the way he was handled. Any time Zambrano does anything good, it will be because he is a good pitcher. He comes back from the suspension and he sucks, it's because they suspended him. He comes back from the suspension and he's good, it's DESPITE the suspension.

Management decision can only affect a pitcher in the negative sense. That's how it works I guess.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
None of Z's results (good or bad) from here on reflect on the wisdom (or lack thereof) of the decision. The decision had to be based on the pitchers' track records to that point. Zambrano had the best track record and he deserved the breathing room to right the ship. End of story. I think this has been made sufficiently clear. Zambrano is a veteran with a solid track record. Wells is in his second year. Silva came off the two worst seasons of any pitcher in history. Gorz has had one good season. It was a no-brainer, and yet the Cubs screwed it up. Total knee-jerk, desperate move.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


Exactly. To me, this is irrefutable.

And no one ever said he sucked because he was demoted or suspended, only that demoting him and suspending were bad ideas. Which they were.

[kbwsb]

Gee, talk about being emphatic.

[BT]

<!--quoteo(post=112263:date=Aug 25 2010, 02:11 PM:name=veryzer)-->QUOTE (veryzer @ Aug 25 2010, 02:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=112240:date=Aug 25 2010, 12:06 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Aug 25 2010, 12:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=112235:date=Aug 25 2010, 11:02 AM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Aug 25 2010, 11:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=112206:date=Aug 25 2010, 05:48 AM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Aug 25 2010, 05:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->You know what? Zambrano might still be good.

Makes me wonder what kind of season he could have had if not for the absolutely retarded decision to put him in the bullpen.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

i knew this was coming.

any time Zambrano does anything bad this year it will be because of the way he was handled. Any time Zambrano does anything good, it will be because he is a good pitcher. He comes back from the suspension and he sucks, it's because they suspended him. He comes back from the suspension and he's good, it's DESPITE the suspension.

Management decision can only affect a pitcher in the negative sense. That's how it works I guess.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
None of Z's results (good or bad) from here on reflect on the wisdom (or lack thereof) of the decision. The decision had to be based on the pitchers' track records to that point. Zambrano had the best track record and he deserved the breathing room to right the ship. End of story. I think this has been made sufficiently clear. Zambrano is a veteran with a solid track record. Wells is in his second year. Silva came off the two worst seasons of any pitcher in history. Gorz has had one good season. It was a no-brainer, and yet the Cubs screwed it up. Total knee-jerk, desperate move.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


Exactly. To me, this is irrefutable.

And no one ever said he sucked because he was demoted or suspended, only that demoting him and suspending were bad ideas. Which they were.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Really? I could have sworn someone on this thread said something along the lines that Zambrano could have had a good season if the Cubs hadn't ruined it by taking him out of the rotation.

[BT]

<!--quoteo(post=112257:date=Aug 25 2010, 01:49 PM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Aug 25 2010, 01:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=112254:date=Aug 25 2010, 01:45 PM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Aug 25 2010, 01:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I'm pretty much done arguing, and it appears this has all been settled [snip] .<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So...I win?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

You already declared that. I didn't think it was still open to discussion.