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<!--quoteo(post=17616:date=Feb 12 2009, 01:44 PM:name=KBwsb)-->QUOTE (KBwsb @ Feb 12 2009, 01:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I love you Clappie, but I'm sure you know what that last post sounded like:
"Phan's sister, who went to school near Cincinnati, knew a friend of a friend's cousin who watches the Reds, and she says that Dunn is actually a pretty good outfielder, not nearly as bad as everybody says. In fact those stat guys, and the guys who are paid to watch every single play of every game, and then <i>re-watch</i> it it in slow-motion, so as to evaluate fielding...those guys are clueless and cannot be trusted. What the hell do <i>they</i> know?
Instead, I'd go with the opinion of my friend-of-a-friend's cousin who's a fan, and caught quite a few Red's games last year at a bar."<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He's actually a big, big baseball nut like us, otherwise I wouldn't have brought it up. Whether Abreu's good or not isn't the point, it's that he's not as bad as Dunn. Dunn woul be SO much better off in the AL where he can just hit, like fellow outfield butcher Pat Burrell did.
By the way, I don't even have a problem with Dunn as you could see in my blog today where I talked about how he's a big loss for the Dbacks. If not for the out of control orgasm people have with him, I'd rarely even comment on him. He even made me laugh a bit on MLB Net last night.
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<!--quoteo(post=17621:date=Feb 12 2009, 03:05 PM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Feb 12 2009, 03:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Kabes -- Dunn's fielding is beyond brutal. I love what he brings on offense, but he is a train wreck on the field. In one game against the Cubs, I recall seeing him misplay two relatively easy flies that were nearly right to him -- in consecutive ABs. He is slower than hell, he doesn't get a good read on the ball, he takes terrible routes, and his arm is average, at best. He's Alf without the athletic ability to make up for his stupidity.
I'll admit that I haven't seen much of Abreu on the field the last couple of years, but he would have to be absolutely terrible to be worse than Dunn.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Butch, I admit that Dunn is a terrible OFer, but that wasn't the point. The point is that you're basing your evaluation on having seen 1/162nd of the player's performance.
It'd be like me saying "I saw Pujols in a game last year against the Mets. He went 0-for-5, and struck out three times. He looked really bad a on a hanging curve ball that led to his final K...didn't judge it well at all. It's obvious he fucking sucks as a hitter."
There's nothing better than to realize that the good things about youth don't end with youth itself. It's a matter of realizing that life can be renewed every day you get out of bed without baggage. It's tough to get there, but it's better than the dark thoughts. -Lance
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<!--quoteo(post=17626:date=Feb 12 2009, 02:24 PM:name=KBwsb)-->QUOTE (KBwsb @ Feb 12 2009, 02:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=17621:date=Feb 12 2009, 03:05 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Feb 12 2009, 03:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Kabes -- Dunn's fielding is beyond brutal. I love what he brings on offense, but he is a train wreck on the field. In one game against the Cubs, I recall seeing him misplay two relatively easy flies that were nearly right to him -- in consecutive ABs. He is slower than hell, he doesn't get a good read on the ball, he takes terrible routes, and his arm is average, at best. He's Alf without the athletic ability to make up for his stupidity.
I'll admit that I haven't seen much of Abreu on the field the last couple of years, but he would have to be absolutely terrible to be worse than Dunn.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Butch, I admit that Dunn is a terrible OFer, but that wasn't the point. The point is that you're basing your evaluation on having seen 1/162nd of the player's performance.
It'd be like me saying "I saw Pujols in a game last year. He went 0-for-4, and struck out twice. He looked really bad a on a hanging curve ball that led to his final K...didn't judge it well at all. It's obvious he fucking sucks as a hitter."
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Only a routine fly ball is supposed to be 'routine' its a play that's supposed to be made EVERY time. Batting is very different even the very very best like Pujols only get hits in 35% of their AB's, so that's really not a fair comparison.
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Yeah, but the Pujols game was against Mike Pelfry. Pujols should have pounded him. Routinely.
Then later in the game, a reliever named Joe Smith K'd Pujols.
<b>Pujols can't even get wood on the ball against some fucking guy named Joe Smith!</b>
Therefore, he sucks as a hitter.
There's nothing better than to realize that the good things about youth don't end with youth itself. It's a matter of realizing that life can be renewed every day you get out of bed without baggage. It's tough to get there, but it's better than the dark thoughts. -Lance
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<!--quoteo(post=17626:date=Feb 12 2009, 03:24 PM:name=KBwsb)-->QUOTE (KBwsb @ Feb 12 2009, 03:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=17621:date=Feb 12 2009, 03:05 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Feb 12 2009, 03:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Kabes -- Dunn's fielding is beyond brutal. I love what he brings on offense, but he is a train wreck on the field. In one game against the Cubs, I recall seeing him misplay two relatively easy flies that were nearly right to him -- in consecutive ABs. He is slower than hell, he doesn't get a good read on the ball, he takes terrible routes, and his arm is average, at best. He's Alf without the athletic ability to make up for his stupidity.
I'll admit that I haven't seen much of Abreu on the field the last couple of years, but he would have to be absolutely terrible to be worse than Dunn.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Butch, I admit that Dunn is a terrible OFer, but that wasn't the point. The point is that you're basing your evaluation on having seen 1/162nd of the player's performance.
It'd be like me saying "I saw Pujols in a game last year against the Mets. He went 0-for-5, and struck out three times. He looked really bad a on a hanging curve ball that led to his final K...didn't judge it well at all. It's obvious he fucking sucks as a hitter."
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've seen Dunn play the field plenty of times -- I'm not basing my conclusion on just one game.
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Another thing about the Pujols game...in the 9th, the Cards were behind, but staged a big rally.
Pujols was already 0-for-4 with 3 strike-outs.
Then, with a man on 3rd, Pujols grounded out weakly for the game's final out.
So not only does he suck as a hitter, but he's not CLUTCH!
There's nothing better than to realize that the good things about youth don't end with youth itself. It's a matter of realizing that life can be renewed every day you get out of bed without baggage. It's tough to get there, but it's better than the dark thoughts. -Lance
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Dunn is one of the worst fielders I've ever seen.
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I swear we've had this argument before.
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<!--quoteo(post=17626:date=Feb 12 2009, 04:24 PM:name=KBwsb)-->QUOTE (KBwsb @ Feb 12 2009, 04:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=17621:date=Feb 12 2009, 03:05 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Feb 12 2009, 03:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Kabes -- Dunn's fielding is beyond brutal. I love what he brings on offense, but he is a train wreck on the field. In one game against the Cubs, I recall seeing him misplay two relatively easy flies that were nearly right to him -- in consecutive ABs. He is slower than hell, he doesn't get a good read on the ball, he takes terrible routes, and his arm is average, at best. He's Alf without the athletic ability to make up for his stupidity.
I'll admit that I haven't seen much of Abreu on the field the last couple of years, but he would have to be absolutely terrible to be worse than Dunn.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Butch, I admit that Dunn is a terrible OFer, but that wasn't the point. The point is that you're basing your evaluation on having seen 1/162nd of the player's performance.
It'd be like me saying "I saw Pujols in a game last year against the Mets. He went 0-for-5, and struck out three times. He looked really bad a on a hanging curve ball that led to his final K...didn't judge it well at all. It's obvious he fucking sucks as a hitter."
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You fail to take into account for this specific simile that Pujols is renown for his great hitting while Dunn is infamous for his terrible, excruciatingly ugly field work. Just because he had an above average defensive year (in his standards) and Abreu had a below average defensive year by his standards, does not make Dunn a better fielder than Abreu. Sorry man, it doesn't.
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<!--quoteo(post=17639:date=Feb 12 2009, 04:13 PM:name=Scarey)-->QUOTE (Scarey @ Feb 12 2009, 04:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=17626:date=Feb 12 2009, 04:24 PM:name=KBwsb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KBwsb @ Feb 12 2009, 04:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=17621:date=Feb 12 2009, 03:05 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Feb 12 2009, 03:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Kabes -- Dunn's fielding is beyond brutal. I love what he brings on offense, but he is a train wreck on the field. In one game against the Cubs, I recall seeing him misplay two relatively easy flies that were nearly right to him -- in consecutive ABs. He is slower than hell, he doesn't get a good read on the ball, he takes terrible routes, and his arm is average, at best. He's Alf without the athletic ability to make up for his stupidity.
I'll admit that I haven't seen much of Abreu on the field the last couple of years, but he would have to be absolutely terrible to be worse than Dunn.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Butch, I admit that Dunn is a terrible OFer, but that wasn't the point. The point is that you're basing your evaluation on having seen 1/162nd of the player's performance.
It'd be like me saying "I saw Pujols in a game last year against the Mets. He went 0-for-5, and struck out three times. He looked really bad a on a hanging curve ball that led to his final K...didn't judge it well at all. It's obvious he fucking sucks as a hitter."
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You fail to take into account for this specific simile that Pujols is renown for his great hitting while Dunn is infamous for his terrible, excruciatingly ugly field work. <b>Just because he had an above average defensive year (in his standards) and Abreu had a below average defensive year by his standards, does not make Dunn a better fielder than Abreu.</b> Sorry man, it doesn't.
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Yes, it does, and here's why: because of their ages.
At his age, Abreu has almost zero chance of getting better in the field. If he's like 99.9% of all ballplayers in history, his fielding will continue to decline in his late 30's.
By contrast, Dunn's was <i>better</i> last year than in recent years. So he's on the upswing, Abreu is on the downswing, and last year (2008) their trajectories passed each other.
<i>Last year</i> Dunn was a better fielder . Than Abreu only. Yes, Dunn was one of the worst OF in MLB, I think 8th or 9th worst last year. But Abreu was THE worst.
And there's little chance, outside of massive steroid ingestion or his discovering a Fountain of Youth, that he'll get better. Dunn will also likely get worse, but he'd have to get FAR worse to be as bad as Abreu.
So my original post: "He's a better hitter, a better fielder and is 6-7 years younger," was basically correct.
<!--coloro:#0000FF--> <!--/coloro-->I will now amend it to say<!--colorc-->
<!--/colorc-->: Dunn's a better hitter, currently a better fielder (although they both suck so badly that they'll both be playing a new position on their new clubs), and is almost 6 years younger.
That's why he got more money than Abreu.
Happy?
There's nothing better than to realize that the good things about youth don't end with youth itself. It's a matter of realizing that life can be renewed every day you get out of bed without baggage. It's tough to get there, but it's better than the dark thoughts. -Lance
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He's never been better than Abreu defensively. I usually don't mean it, but I really don't care what the stats tell me on that this time. Dunn=worst every year in the outfield.
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<!--quoteo(post=17649:date=Feb 12 2009, 04:41 PM:name=Clapp)-->QUOTE (Clapp @ Feb 12 2009, 04:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->He's never been better than Abreu defensively. I usually don't mean it, but I really don't care what the stats tell me on that this time. Dunn=worst every year in the outfield.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, fuck the stats. And also, those personal observations of paid baseball experts who get paid to watch them and grade them <i>for a living</i>.
Those guys are assholes.
There's nothing better than to realize that the good things about youth don't end with youth itself. It's a matter of realizing that life can be renewed every day you get out of bed without baggage. It's tough to get there, but it's better than the dark thoughts. -Lance
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<!--quoteo(post=17650:date=Feb 12 2009, 03:42 PM:name=KBwsb)-->QUOTE (KBwsb @ Feb 12 2009, 03:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=17649:date=Feb 12 2009, 04:41 PM:name=Clapp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Clapp @ Feb 12 2009, 04:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->He's never been better than Abreu defensively. I usually don't mean it, but I really don't care what the stats tell me on that this time. Dunn=worst every year in the outfield.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, fuck the stats.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
FUCK ADAM DUNN! Sometimes I think you want to.
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He'll be a 1st baseman for the Nats. Whee.
BTW, when he homers against the Cubs, I hate his guts.
There's nothing better than to realize that the good things about youth don't end with youth itself. It's a matter of realizing that life can be renewed every day you get out of bed without baggage. It's tough to get there, but it's better than the dark thoughts. -Lance
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<!--quoteo(post=17652:date=Feb 12 2009, 03:46 PM:name=KBwsb)-->QUOTE (KBwsb @ Feb 12 2009, 03:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->He'll be a 1st baseman, most likely, for the Nats. Whee.
BTW, when he homers against the Cubs, I hate his guts.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And in 2 years, when he's a free agent, we can discuss how much better of a hitter he is than DLee. I can't wait.
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