12-19-2010, 08:56 PM
The Brewers were pretty high on Escobar weren't they?
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MLB News & Notes (other than Cubs or Sox)
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12-19-2010, 09:40 PM
<!--quoteo(post=123951:date=Dec 19 2010, 06:56 PM:name=funkster)-->QUOTE (funkster @ Dec 19 2010, 06:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->The Brewers were pretty high on Escobar weren't they?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He was rated their #1 prospect going into the season last year.
12-19-2010, 09:44 PM
<!--quoteo(post=123949:date=Dec 19 2010, 07:44 PM:name=rok)-->QUOTE (rok @ Dec 19 2010, 07:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=123947:date=Dec 19 2010, 06:30 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Dec 19 2010, 06:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Wow. The Brewers gave up jack shit to get him. We could have easily beat that deal. And I'd much rather have Greinke than Garza (if we're still looking to make that deal).<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, I would rather have Garza long-term. That puts me in the minority, for sure, but that's fine. Greinke is mostly a high risk/high reward proposition. Not saying that I wouldn't take him in a heartbeat, but Garza has been steadier, more durable, and has balls. He still has plenty of upside, and will cost less. Oh, and we aren't getting him either. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Unfortunately you are probably right. God forbid this organization do shit to put itself in position to contend. Status quo...Gotta love the new ownership. Here's to seeing Fukudome spin himself into the ground as his encore and Soriano hitting the 200 Ks mark. YAY GO TEAM!!!
Dylan McKay is my hero
12-19-2010, 11:09 PM
<!--quoteo(post=123947:date=Dec 19 2010, 06:30 PM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Dec 19 2010, 06:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Wow. The Brewers gave up jack shit to get him. We could have easily beat that deal. And I'd much rather have Greinke than Garza (if we're still looking to make that deal).<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I hate Escobar, yet while I think we could have beaten that offer, I would not have wanted to. Check out Ace's blog for what they were asking the Cubs for (B.Jackson, Hak-Ju Lee, Chirinos and Archer) and tell me you would want to do that.
I wish that I believed in Fate. I wish I didn't sleep so late. I used to be carried in the arms of cheerleaders.
12-19-2010, 11:10 PM
<!--quoteo(post=123949:date=Dec 19 2010, 05:44 PM:name=rok)-->QUOTE (rok @ Dec 19 2010, 05:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=123947:date=Dec 19 2010, 06:30 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Dec 19 2010, 06:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Wow. The Brewers gave up jack shit to get him. We could have easily beat that deal. And I'd much rather have Greinke than Garza (if we're still looking to make that deal).<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, I would rather have Garza long-term. That puts me in the minority, for sure, but that's fine. Greinke is mostly a high risk/high reward proposition. Not saying that I wouldn't take him in a heartbeat, but Garza has been steadier, more durable, and has balls. He still has plenty of upside, and will cost less. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yep. I highly preferred a Garza trade.
@TheBlogfines
12-19-2010, 11:59 PM
<!--quoteo(post=123938:date=Dec 19 2010, 04:12 PM:name=Runnys)-->QUOTE (Runnys @ Dec 19 2010, 04:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Greinke has had one good year in his career...the rest of his career has been mediocre.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This simply isn't true. He's had one insanely great season and several good ones. I'd much rather have Greinke a Cub than Garza (although I'd be happy with Garza), but certainly not at the price Ace quoted.
One dick can poke an eye out. A hundred dicks can move mountains.
--Veryzer 
12-20-2010, 12:05 AM
Greinke:
2004-06 - Mixed bags, but not great overall. 2007-08 - Mostly very good, but he spent a lot of time in 2007 hurt or in the bullpen. 2009 - Unbelievably good year. 2010 - Decent, but he got pounded several times and had confidence issues at various times throughout the season. I'd say it is not a sure thing that he will dominate in 2011, especially given the high expectations put on him. Not saying I wouldn't take him at this stage of his career, but he is very much a high risk/high reward SP at this point, not a sure thing.
12-20-2010, 12:59 AM
Though Escobar may turn out to be their version of Felix Pie, the Brewers really did pay a pretty steep price. . The two pitchers are both highly thought of and both former 1st round picks. Plus they also traded a top prospect (Lawrie) to get Marcum. If Greinke doesn't pan out this could really come back to bite them in the ass.
12-20-2010, 01:55 AM
<!--quoteo(post=123956:date=Dec 19 2010, 09:10 PM:name=Clapp)-->QUOTE (Clapp @ Dec 19 2010, 09:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=123949:date=Dec 19 2010, 05:44 PM:name=rok)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rok @ Dec 19 2010, 05:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=123947:date=Dec 19 2010, 06:30 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Dec 19 2010, 06:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->...And I'd much rather have Greinke than Garza (if we're still looking to make that deal).<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, I would rather have Garza long-term. That puts me in the minority, for sure, but that's fine. Greinke is mostly a high risk/high reward proposition. Not saying that I wouldn't take him in a heartbeat, but Garza has been steadier, more durable, and has balls. He still has plenty of upside, and will cost less. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yep. I highly preferred a Garza trade. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I love you guys. Rok and Clapp are two of my favorite people. But I can't let that one go by...it's just plain <i>absurd</i>. Garza's best year ever (judging by ERA+) is 119, which is about what Greinke's <i>career</i> ERA+ stands at (116). It's true that Garza has been very steady. Greinke has not been; his second season he completely sucked, quit baseball, killed his career averages with that one hideous year, and then got put on medication. Since then, he's been about the best pitcher in MLB. Maybe Halladay's better. Maybe Lincecum. Maybe. A year ago, Greinke's ERA+ was 205. How many other pitchers in MLB have ever put up that great a season? That would be zero. Nobody is close. You have to go back to the primes of Pedro Martinez and Greg Maddux to find that spectacular a season. He's 26, the exact same age as Garza. Garza WAR career: 9.8 Greinke WAR career: 22.8 You could even erase Greinke's Pedro-like Cy season, and he'd still have more career WAR than Garza. We're talking about comparing a Derrek Lee-type guy (solid, steady) to an Albert Pujols-like guy (a little more than merely solid). I seriously hate to think about what kind of year Greinke's going to put up in the NL, but it'll be similar to Hallday's, I would guess.
There's nothing better than to realize that the good things about youth don't end with youth itself. It's a matter of realizing that life can be renewed every day you get out of bed without baggage. It's tough to get there, but it's better than the dark thoughts. -Lance
12-20-2010, 04:29 AM
Escobar is all glove not bat at all. Cain has a shot to be ok. Jeffress will be out of baseball due to off field issues. I love Ordorizzi. I would put it like this in comparison to our minors. McNutt (Ordorizzi) Jay Jackson (Jeffress)Hak Ju Lee ( Escobar) and Brandon Guyer (Lorenzo Cain). So Guyer, Jay Jackson, McNutt and Lee is what I'd consider it. Not terrible, but not Snider / Drabek which is what I believe is what the Jays had on the table.
12-20-2010, 08:16 AM
I just think he's the next Ankiel.
But, without the ability to hit a home run himself. We have Z, do we want another headcase?
Fat Bastard is an immensely obese, hardly able to walk (weighing a metric ton) gardener and henchman hailing from Scotland. His extreme size endows Fat Bastard with super-human strength as exhibited by his prowess in the Sumo ring from Goldmember. This makes him a formidable enemy for Austin Powers. Fat Bastard is noted for his foul temper, his frequent flatulence, his vulgar and revolting bad manners and his unusual eating habits, which include taste for Human infants (which he calls "the other other white meat") or anything that looks like a baby, e.g. small people. Fat Bastard has been a regular at Cub games since the early 80's when he tried several times (unsuccessfully) to eat the visiting San Diego Chicken.
12-20-2010, 10:28 AM
<!--quoteo(post=123961:date=Dec 19 2010, 11:55 PM:name=KBwsb)-->QUOTE (KBwsb @ Dec 19 2010, 11:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=123956:date=Dec 19 2010, 09:10 PM:name=Clapp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Clapp @ Dec 19 2010, 09:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=123949:date=Dec 19 2010, 05:44 PM:name=rok)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rok @ Dec 19 2010, 05:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=123947:date=Dec 19 2010, 06:30 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Dec 19 2010, 06:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->...And I'd much rather have Greinke than Garza (if we're still looking to make that deal).<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, I would rather have Garza long-term. That puts me in the minority, for sure, but that's fine. Greinke is mostly a high risk/high reward proposition. Not saying that I wouldn't take him in a heartbeat, but Garza has been steadier, more durable, and has balls. He still has plenty of upside, and will cost less. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yep. I highly preferred a Garza trade. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I love you guys. Rok and Clapp are two of my favorite people. But I can't let that one go by...it's just plain <i>absurd</i>. Garza's best year ever (judging by ERA+) is 119, which is about what Greinke's <i>career</i> ERA+ stands at (116). It's true that Garza has been very steady. Greinke has not been; his second season he completely sucked, quit baseball, killed his career averages with that one hideous year, and then got put on medication. Since then, he's been about the best pitcher in MLB. Maybe Halladay's better. Maybe Lincecum. Maybe. A year ago, Greinke's ERA+ was 205. How many other pitchers in MLB have ever put up that great a season? That would be zero. Nobody is close. You have to go back to the primes of Pedro Martinez and Greg Maddux to find that spectacular a season. He's 26, the exact same age as Garza. Garza WAR career: 9.8 Greinke WAR career: 22.8 You could even erase Greinke's Pedro-like Cy season, and he'd still have more career WAR than Garza. We're talking about comparing a Derrek Lee-type guy (solid, steady) to an Albert Pujols-like guy (a little more than merely solid). I seriously hate to think about what kind of year Greinke's going to put up in the NL, but it'll be similar to Hallday's, I would guess. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm not 100 percent sure I disagree with your premise (that Grienke is better than Garza), but your arguments have some serious flaws. First of all, you can't refer to 2005 as a career average killer, unless you are willing to admit that 2009 was a career average builder. His 2009, ERA+-wise is off the charts better than his second best year. If you take out 2005 and 2009 from Grienke's career, and call them anomalies, his career looks fairly similar to Garza. Better than Garza, but not by a whole lot. Yes, Grienke has a much higher WAR, even if you take out his 2009 season, but WAR is a counting stat, and Grienke has twice as many seasons with 100 IP (6 to 3) in which to attain those WAR numbers. It's like saying Derrek Lee is a better power hitter than Adrian Gonzales because he has 300 HR in his career and AGon has 160. You aren't looking at context at all. Grienke isn't close to the best pitcher in baseball. His 2009 was one of the greatest seasons we've ever seen, but outside of that he has been good to very good. Lincecum has won 2 Cy Youngs. Halladay has been a top 5 Cy Young candidate the last 5 years running. Grienke has been in the top 10 voting for Cy Young only once, the year he won it. He will help the Brewers. I'd probably take him over Garza. But there is an argument to be made that obtaining the (theoretically) cheaper, no record of insanity guy over the really good pitcher with one incredible year under his belt, might make sense.
I wish that I believed in Fate. I wish I didn't sleep so late. I used to be carried in the arms of cheerleaders.
12-20-2010, 10:37 AM
That last point by BT is what I am talking about, and I stand by my previous post. I never said that Garza was the better talent, or the better pitcher, or that he would accomplish more in his career, <b>but</b> right now I'd still have serious reservations about giving up the farm for a guy like Greinke. He isn't yet at the point in his career where he has completely put his past mental issues behind him either. And why did he resist a trade to a major market team? Just look at how the entire trade process has transpired, and review his 2010 game log, and then look at his career inconsistency and you will see my point a bit more.
12-20-2010, 11:21 AM
<!--quoteo(post=123968:date=Dec 20 2010, 08:37 AM:name=rok)-->QUOTE (rok @ Dec 20 2010, 08:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->That last point by BT is what I am talking about, and I stand by my previous post. I never said that Garza was the better talent, or the better pitcher, or that he would accomplish more in his career, but right now I'd still have serious reservations about giving up the farm for a guy like Greinke. He isn't yet at the point in his career where he has completely put his past mental issues behind him either. And why did he resist a trade to a major market team? Just look at how the entire trade process has transpired, and review his 2010 game log, and then look at his career inconsistency and you will see my point a bit more.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, I question whether he could have handle the pressure here. If he came to the Cubs I'd definitely see him at one point, like in August or something, head out to the mound in the fifth inning, slowly remove his uniform, carefully fold it into a neat little pile, walk into the stands, out the park, and hail a cab. Never be heard from again.
Some men are born mediocre, some men achieve mediocrity, and some men have mediocrity thrust upon them.
12-20-2010, 11:41 AM
<!--quoteo(post=123968:date=Dec 20 2010, 08:37 AM:name=rok)-->QUOTE (rok @ Dec 20 2010, 08:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->That last point by BT is what I am talking about, and I stand by my previous post. I never said that Garza was the better talent, or the better pitcher, or that he would accomplish more in his career, <b>but</b> right now I'd still have serious reservations about giving up the farm for a guy like Greinke. He isn't yet at the point in his career where he has completely put his past mental issues behind him either. And why did he resist a trade to a major market team? Just look at how the entire trade process has transpired, and review his 2010 game log, and then look at his career inconsistency and you will see my point a bit more.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do we know what teams were on his no trade list? Were they major market teams? That would be a very interesting piece of the story. |
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