<!--quoteo(post=11758:date=Jan 15 2009, 09:43 AM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Jan 15 2009, 09:43 AM)
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<{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->There's actually a reasonable argument that Koufax shouldn't be in the HOF. I don't agree with it, but it's definitely there.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not even arguing that though. It's fine if someone doesn't think Koufax should be in there. But if they think the Hall should be THAT selective, then talking about Dale Murphy is an obvious non-starter. It's pointless to argue 3rd tier guys, if you don't think 2nd tier guys should get in.
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Yeah, I wasn't really speaking to anyone in particular, just making a comment. Because the general thought seems to be that he's as much of a lock as there is, but when you look at things he's really not.
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The only argument that you can make is that he only pitched 12 seasons and didn't have enough wins (whatever "enough" means). But if you look at his pedigree, it eclipses his longevity issues by far. And longevity, while a legitimate consideration, isn't the only thing to consider.
- 6 All-Star games
- 3 World Series rings
- 3 Cy Young Awards
- 1 MVP Award (how many pitchers have won an MVP?)
- 2 World Series MVPs
- 4 no-hitters (including a perfect game)
If Koufax doesn't belong in the Hall, then you need to throw out every other pitcher except maybe Bob Gibson, Cy Young, Walter Johnson, and Tom Seaver. And you can probably let Maddux in when he's eligible.
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this is retarded. all i said is i don't think koufax belongs in the hall of fame. because of that, i guess now i don't think any but maybe 10 players should be in? come on. for the most part, i think most hall of famers deserve to be there. there are exceptions. rabbit maranville, tinkers evers chance, bill mazeroski, brooks robinson, and a few others.
i appreciate what koufax did. he was amazing....for a few years. plus, he quit in his prime. quit. he didn't really like baseball. fuck him. but i NEVER suggested he was 2nd tier. he just didn't do it for long enough. thats all. the first few years off his career were average as well.
and willie hernandez won an mvp. should he be in the hall of fame? how about dwight gooden? he was real good for a short period of time. orel hershiser? dave stewart? ron guidry?
let me sum up: dale murphy was an excellent player...for a handful of years. sandy koufax dominated...for a few years...during a pitchers era. i respect both of them, but i don't think they should be in the hall.
i would bet that i would agree with about 90% of the players that are in the hall, but not koufax, not rice, and if murphy gets in(which he won't), i won't agree with that either.
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What, exactly, is "retarded" here? You said yourself you don't think Koufax belongs in the HOF. That pretty much, by definition, would make him, AT BEST, a second tier player. So I'm not quite sure why you are so stung by that claim.
you also seem to think that Santo doesn't belong. Or for that matter, Murphy, Rice, Parker, Dawson, et al. Taking that into account, it would seem to me you have a higher standard than most people when it comes to the Hall. That's not an assault on your character, but rather a seemingly obvious observation.
All I am saying is that if you don't think Koufax should be in, and Koufax (at least to me) is clearly better than Murphy, then it's pointless to argue about Murphy.
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sandy koufax was a first tier player....for a handful years. so was murphy, parker, and rice. in my mind, you've gotta do it for more than a handful of years. thats just my opinion.
whats retarded is this belief that i don't think most of the pitchers in the hall deserve to be there, butcher said it. he said we'd half to eliminate all but a few pitchers. thats retarded. the majority of them belong there. the vast majority belong there.
