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<!--quoteo(post=11571:date=Jan 14 2009, 03:22 PM:name=Giff)-->QUOTE (Giff @ Jan 14 2009, 03:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->There's actually a reasonable argument that Koufax shouldn't be in the HOF. I don't agree with it, but it's definitely there.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, it <i>is</i> there, you're right. There will always be the elemental argument about whether the HOF should honor guys who were damn good for 20 years, OR, instead, guys who had scalding white-hot peaks and were the best players on earth, but only for a short while.
The original HOF class didn't have to bother with that question. Guys like Ruth and Ty Cobb and Honus Wagner all had Mount Everest peaks AND played 20 years or more. And later guys like Willie Mays had similar careers. But those guys are pretty rare: there's like 10-15 of them in MLB history...do you really want a HOF where you only induct 1 guy every 10 years or so?
And what do you do with guys like Joe DiMaggio and Koufax? Guys who were every bit as good as Mays and Cobb, but had much shorter careers?
There's nothing better than to realize that the good things about youth don't end with youth itself. It's a matter of realizing that life can be renewed every day you get out of bed without baggage. It's tough to get there, but it's better than the dark thoughts. -Lance
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<!--quoteo(post=11571:date=Jan 14 2009, 03:22 PM:name=Giff)-->QUOTE (Giff @ Jan 14 2009, 03:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->There's actually a reasonable argument that Koufax shouldn't be in the HOF. I don't agree with it, but it's definitely there.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not even arguing that though. It's fine if someone doesn't think Koufax should be in there. But if they think the Hall should be THAT selective, then talking about Dale Murphy is an obvious non-starter. It's pointless to argue 3rd tier guys, if you don't think 2nd tier guys should get in.
I wish that I believed in Fate. I wish I didn't sleep so late. I used to be carried in the arms of cheerleaders.
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<!--quoteo(post=11575:date=Jan 14 2009, 03:48 PM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Jan 14 2009, 03:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=11571:date=Jan 14 2009, 03:22 PM:name=Giff)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Giff @ Jan 14 2009, 03:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->There's actually a reasonable argument that Koufax shouldn't be in the HOF. I don't agree with it, but it's definitely there.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not even arguing that though. It's fine if someone doesn't think Koufax should be in there. But if they think the Hall should be THAT selective, then talking about Dale Murphy is an obvious non-starter. It's pointless to argue 3rd tier guys, if you don't think 2nd tier guys should get in.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, I wasn't really speaking to anyone in particular, just making a comment. Because the general thought seems to be that he's as much of a lock as there is, but when you look at things he's really not.
I 100% agree with the point you're making though. It really is pointless to argue about it with tom about it.
The thing you need to remember is that all Cardinals fans and all White Sox fans are very bad people. It's a fact that has been scientifically proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. Being a Cubs fan is the only path to rightousness and piousness. Cardinal and White Sox fans exist to be the dark, diabolical forces that oppose us. They are the yin to our yang, the Joker to our Batman, the demon to our angel, the insurgence to our freedom, the oil to our water, the club to our baby seal. Their happiness occurs only in direct conflict with everything that is pure and good in this world.
-Dirk
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<!--quoteo(post=11581:date=Jan 14 2009, 03:58 PM:name=Giff)-->QUOTE (Giff @ Jan 14 2009, 03:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=11575:date=Jan 14 2009, 03:48 PM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Jan 14 2009, 03:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=11571:date=Jan 14 2009, 03:22 PM:name=Giff)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Giff @ Jan 14 2009, 03:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->There's actually a reasonable argument that Koufax shouldn't be in the HOF. I don't agree with it, but it's definitely there.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not even arguing that though. It's fine if someone doesn't think Koufax should be in there. But if they think the Hall should be THAT selective, then talking about Dale Murphy is an obvious non-starter. It's pointless to argue 3rd tier guys, if you don't think 2nd tier guys should get in.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, I wasn't really speaking to anyone in particular, just making a comment. Because the general thought seems to be that he's as much of a lock as there is, but when you look at things he's really not.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The only argument that you can make is that he only pitched 12 seasons and didn't have enough wins (whatever "enough" means). But if you look at his pedigree, it eclipses his longevity issues by far. And longevity, while a legitimate consideration, isn't the only thing to consider.
- 6 All-Star games
- 3 World Series rings
- 3 Cy Young Awards
- 1 MVP Award (how many pitchers have won an MVP?)
- 2 World Series MVPs
- 4 no-hitters (including a perfect game)
If Koufax doesn't belong in the Hall, then you need to throw out every other pitcher except maybe Bob Gibson, Cy Young, Walter Johnson, and Tom Seaver. And you can probably let Maddux in when he's eligible.
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What's interesting about this debate is trying conceptualize the era in which they played versus what have been used to seeing now. It isn't an easy thing to do. History reevaluates eras and sometimes we find out we were wrong. I don't think it's ever as cut and dry "as if think this group of players are in, therefor, this person should be in." I'm kind of glad Rice got in because he now sets a standard for a reevaluation of that era. Perhaps people we'll discover that we've been wrong about some of these debated players.
Perhaps the time frame needs to be tweaked a little. Maybe the window needs to be expanded or contracted. Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing a person become eligible a few years earlier and have the person be eligible for voting indefinitely. That means I'd, also, like the 5% minimum previous vote requirement increased greatly.
If Angelo had picked McClellin, I would have been expecting to hear by training camp that kid has stage 4 cancer, is actually 5'2" 142 lbs, is a chick who played in a 7 - 0 defensive scheme who only rotated in on downs which were 3 and 34 yds + so is not expecting to play a down in the NFL until the sex change is complete and she puts on another 100 lbs. + but this is Emery's first pick so he'll get a pass with a bit of questioning. - 1060Ivy
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<!--quoteo(post=11583:date=Jan 14 2009, 04:02 PM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Jan 14 2009, 04:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=11581:date=Jan 14 2009, 03:58 PM:name=Giff)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Giff @ Jan 14 2009, 03:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=11575:date=Jan 14 2009, 03:48 PM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Jan 14 2009, 03:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=11571:date=Jan 14 2009, 03:22 PM:name=Giff)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Giff @ Jan 14 2009, 03:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->There's actually a reasonable argument that Koufax shouldn't be in the HOF. I don't agree with it, but it's definitely there.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not even arguing that though. It's fine if someone doesn't think Koufax should be in there. But if they think the Hall should be THAT selective, then talking about Dale Murphy is an obvious non-starter. It's pointless to argue 3rd tier guys, if you don't think 2nd tier guys should get in.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, I wasn't really speaking to anyone in particular, just making a comment. Because the general thought seems to be that he's as much of a lock as there is, but when you look at things he's really not.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The only argument that you can make is that he only pitched 12 seasons and didn't have enough wins (whatever "enough" means). But if you look at his pedigree, it eclipses his longevity issues by far. And longevity, while a legitimate consideration, isn't the only thing to consider.
- 6 All-Star games
- 3 World Series rings
- 3 Cy Young Awards
- 1 MVP Award (how many pitchers have won an MVP?)
- 2 World Series MVPs
- 4 no-hitters (including a perfect game)
If Koufax doesn't belong in the Hall, then you need to throw out every other pitcher except maybe Bob Gibson, Cy Young, Walter Johnson, and Tom Seaver. And you can probably let Maddux in when he's eligible.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let me preface this by saying I don't agree with this argument. I think Koufax belongs in the HOF, but I see a case to say he isn't, or at least not a slam dunk. (Also, I don't believe in all-encompassing stats that says who is average and who is not, but it's still a reasonable way to make a case, so here goes...)
If you look at his numbers, he was only a well above "average" pitcher for 6 of his 12 seasons (ERA+ of greater than 110, in this case). That's half of his time in the big leagues spent at mediocrity (or maybe a little better). He was incredibly dominant for 4 seasons. But those 4 seasons, the league average ERAs were 2.99, 3.25, 3.26, and 3.28. Obviously his ERAs of 1.88, 1.74, 2.04 and 1.73 are still incredible, but it can't be forgotten that they came in a very pitcher-oriented era. And even after those 4 seasons (in a vacuum, one of the greatest 4-year stretches for a pitcher in history), his career ERA was 2.76. Obviously still very good, but coming in a pitcher dominated time, I wouldn't consider that slam dunk material.
The thing you need to remember is that all Cardinals fans and all White Sox fans are very bad people. It's a fact that has been scientifically proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. Being a Cubs fan is the only path to rightousness and piousness. Cardinal and White Sox fans exist to be the dark, diabolical forces that oppose us. They are the yin to our yang, the Joker to our Batman, the demon to our angel, the insurgence to our freedom, the oil to our water, the club to our baby seal. Their happiness occurs only in direct conflict with everything that is pure and good in this world.
-Dirk
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The NL earned run average takes a nosedive starting in 1962. Can anyone give reason for this? Really good pitching? Really bad hitting? Lack of talent?
If Angelo had picked McClellin, I would have been expecting to hear by training camp that kid has stage 4 cancer, is actually 5'2" 142 lbs, is a chick who played in a 7 - 0 defensive scheme who only rotated in on downs which were 3 and 34 yds + so is not expecting to play a down in the NFL until the sex change is complete and she puts on another 100 lbs. + but this is Emery's first pick so he'll get a pass with a bit of questioning. - 1060Ivy
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<!--quoteo(post=11591:date=Jan 14 2009, 04:43 PM:name=bz)-->QUOTE (bz @ Jan 14 2009, 04:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->The NL earned run average takes a nosedive starting in 1962. Can anyone give reason for this? Really good pitching? Really bad hitting? Lack of talent?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
drug testing.
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Maybe they raised the mound? I know they lowered it in '68 or '69...
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Double posts are such a wonderful part of this new site! [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif[/img]
For my actual post, see below:
There's nothing better than to realize that the good things about youth don't end with youth itself. It's a matter of realizing that life can be renewed every day you get out of bed without baggage. It's tough to get there, but it's better than the dark thoughts. -Lance
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<!--quoteo(post=11591:date=Jan 14 2009, 04:43 PM:name=bz)-->QUOTE (bz @ Jan 14 2009, 04:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->The NL earned run average takes a nosedive starting in 1962. Can anyone give reason for this? Really good pitching? Really bad hitting? Lack of talent?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm pretty sure they increased the strike zone, from the shoulders to the bottom of the knees. This was, I believe, in response to Maris breaking the HR record the year before (along with a general onslaught of huge HR totals...Mantle hit 54, the Yanks set the all-time team record with 240, nobodies like Norm Cash and Jim Gentile poked 45 or so, etc.).
There were also, I think, other changes. Mounds had never really been monitored, and certain ones (like in Dodger stadium) were said to have been increased in the '60's to crazy heights. There was also a trend towards vast pitcher parks being built at exactly that time: Dodger Stadium opened around '61 or so, Candlestick was not friendly to hitters, Busch was a pitcher's park...even the 2 expansion teams (Mets, Astros) constructed 2 of the most extreme pitcher-friendly parks in history, Shea and the Astrodome. These were all NL parks.
And perhaps it was also just one of those "chance" things that the NL was absurdly stocked with mind-blowing pitching talent in the mid-60's: Koufax, Drysdale, Bob Gibson, Juan Marichal, Gaylord Perry, etc., with Tom Seaver, Fergie Jenkins, Steve Carlton joining the league right when Koufax retired.
All that added up to severely depressed hitting, which culminated in the 1968 season, which was so ridiculous that they finally changed the rules before the '69 season.
There's nothing better than to realize that the good things about youth don't end with youth itself. It's a matter of realizing that life can be renewed every day you get out of bed without baggage. It's tough to get there, but it's better than the dark thoughts. -Lance
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<!--quoteo(post=11583:date=Jan 14 2009, 04:02 PM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Jan 14 2009, 04:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=11581:date=Jan 14 2009, 03:58 PM:name=Giff)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Giff @ Jan 14 2009, 03:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=11575:date=Jan 14 2009, 03:48 PM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Jan 14 2009, 03:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=11571:date=Jan 14 2009, 03:22 PM:name=Giff)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Giff @ Jan 14 2009, 03:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->There's actually a reasonable argument that Koufax shouldn't be in the HOF. I don't agree with it, but it's definitely there.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not even arguing that though. It's fine if someone doesn't think Koufax should be in there. But if they think the Hall should be THAT selective, then talking about Dale Murphy is an obvious non-starter. It's pointless to argue 3rd tier guys, if you don't think 2nd tier guys should get in.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, I wasn't really speaking to anyone in particular, just making a comment. Because the general thought seems to be that he's as much of a lock as there is, but when you look at things he's really not.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The only argument that you can make is that he only pitched 12 seasons and didn't have enough wins (whatever "enough" means). But if you look at his pedigree, it eclipses his longevity issues by far. And longevity, while a legitimate consideration, isn't the only thing to consider.
- 6 All-Star games
- 3 World Series rings
- 3 Cy Young Awards
- 1 MVP Award (how many pitchers have won an MVP?)
- 2 World Series MVPs
- 4 no-hitters (including a perfect game)
If Koufax doesn't belong in the Hall, then you need to throw out every other pitcher except maybe Bob Gibson, Cy Young, Walter Johnson, and Tom Seaver. And you can probably let Maddux in when he's eligible.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this is retarded. all i said is i don't think koufax belongs in the hall of fame. because of that, i guess now i don't think any but maybe 10 players should be in? come on. for the most part, i think most hall of famers deserve to be there. there are exceptions. rabbit maranville, tinkers evers chance, bill mazeroski, brooks robinson, and a few others.
i appreciate what koufax did. he was amazing....for a few years. plus, he quit in his prime. quit. he didn't really like baseball. fuck him. but i NEVER suggested he was 2nd tier. he just didn't do it for long enough. thats all. the first few years off his career were average as well.
and willie hernandez won an mvp. should he be in the hall of fame? how about dwight gooden? he was real good for a short period of time. orel hershiser? dave stewart? ron guidry?
let me sum up: dale murphy was an excellent player...for a handful of years. sandy koufax dominated...for a few years...during a pitchers era. i respect both of them, but i don't think they should be in the hall.
i would bet that i would agree with about 90% of the players that are in the hall, but not koufax, not rice, and if murphy gets in(which he won't), i won't agree with that either.
Wang.
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<!--quoteo(post=11741:date=Jan 15 2009, 08:45 AM:name=veryzer)-->QUOTE (veryzer @ Jan 15 2009, 08:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=11583:date=Jan 14 2009, 04:02 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Jan 14 2009, 04:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=11581:date=Jan 14 2009, 03:58 PM:name=Giff)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Giff @ Jan 14 2009, 03:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=11575:date=Jan 14 2009, 03:48 PM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Jan 14 2009, 03:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=11571:date=Jan 14 2009, 03:22 PM:name=Giff)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Giff @ Jan 14 2009, 03:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->There's actually a reasonable argument that Koufax shouldn't be in the HOF. I don't agree with it, but it's definitely there.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not even arguing that though. It's fine if someone doesn't think Koufax should be in there. But if they think the Hall should be THAT selective, then talking about Dale Murphy is an obvious non-starter. It's pointless to argue 3rd tier guys, if you don't think 2nd tier guys should get in.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, I wasn't really speaking to anyone in particular, just making a comment. Because the general thought seems to be that he's as much of a lock as there is, but when you look at things he's really not.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The only argument that you can make is that he only pitched 12 seasons and didn't have enough wins (whatever "enough" means). But if you look at his pedigree, it eclipses his longevity issues by far. And longevity, while a legitimate consideration, isn't the only thing to consider.
- 6 All-Star games
- 3 World Series rings
- 3 Cy Young Awards
- 1 MVP Award (how many pitchers have won an MVP?)
- 2 World Series MVPs
- 4 no-hitters (including a perfect game)
If Koufax doesn't belong in the Hall, then you need to throw out every other pitcher except maybe Bob Gibson, Cy Young, Walter Johnson, and Tom Seaver. And you can probably let Maddux in when he's eligible.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this is retarded. all i said is i don't think koufax belongs in the hall of fame. because of that, i guess now i don't think any but maybe 10 players should be in? come on. for the most part, i think most hall of famers deserve to be there. there are exceptions. rabbit maranville, tinkers evers chance, bill mazeroski, brooks robinson, and a few others.
i appreciate what koufax did. he was amazing....for a few years. plus, he quit in his prime. quit. he didn't really like baseball. fuck him. but i NEVER suggested he was 2nd tier. he just didn't do it for long enough. thats all. the first few years off his career were average as well.
and willie hernandez won an mvp. should he be in the hall of fame? how about dwight gooden? he was real good for a short period of time. orel hershiser? dave stewart? ron guidry?
let me sum up: dale murphy was an excellent player...for a handful of years. sandy koufax dominated...for a few years...during a pitchers era. i respect both of them, but i don't think they should be in the hall.
i would bet that i would agree with about 90% of the players that are in the hall, but not koufax, not rice, and if murphy gets in(which he won't), i won't agree with that either.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What, exactly, is "retarded" here? You said yourself you don't think Koufax belongs in the HOF. That pretty much, by definition, would make him, AT BEST, a second tier player. So I'm not quite sure why you are so stung by that claim.
you also seem to think that Santo doesn't belong. Or for that matter, Murphy, Rice, Parker, Dawson, et al. Taking that into account, it would seem to me you have a higher standard than most people when it comes to the Hall. That's not an assault on your character, but rather a seemingly obvious observation.
All I am saying is that if you don't think Koufax should be in, and Koufax (at least to me) is clearly better than Murphy, then it's pointless to argue about Murphy.
I wish that I believed in Fate. I wish I didn't sleep so late. I used to be carried in the arms of cheerleaders.
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A herd of buffalo can move only as fast as the slowest buffalo. When the herd is hunted, it is the slowest and weakest ones at the back that are killed first. This natural selection is good for the herd as a whole, because the general speed and health of the whole group keeps improving by the regular killing of the weakest members.
In much the same way the human brain can only operate as fast as the slowest brain cells. Excessive intake of alcohol, we all know, kills brain cells, but naturally it attacks the slowest and weakest brain cells first. In this way regular consumption of beer eliminates the weaker brain cells, making the brain a faster and more efficient machine. That's why you always feel smarter after a few beers.
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Koufax retired because of arm or shoulder issues right? That is what I always remember hearing.
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