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Hey, here's a thought. Maybe we should let these 2 get, you know, ONE FUCKING MAJOR LEAGUE AT BAT, before we put either of them in the Hall of Fame. Whaddayathink?
Here's another thought. In February 2001, how many of you guys would have been saying that the "obvious" pick in the 2003 draft was Corey Patterson over JD Drew, since Baseball America had him as the #2 overall prospect in baseball?
My guess is that Wieters will be better than Vitters, but the idea Hendry is a moron because he picked a guy with similar ability for half the price and at a position we might have a higher need for down the line, is silly.
Lastly, here are the 2 scouting reports on them at the time of the draft, as per MLB.com. Tell me that after reading these 2, the Wieters one just SCREAMS out that he is obvious pick:
<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->One of the most polished high school hitters in the draft class, Vitters has the potential to hit for average and power.
Vitters likely entered the season as the top high school hitter on most draft boards. He did nothing to upset that with his showing at the Urban Academy Showcase.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->Wieters usually is an electric hitter with the ability to hit for power and average from both sides of the plate. Early this season, though, he's been fighting himself at the plate during games, getting out too quickly. He's more fluid from the left side and has more strength from the right.
On Friday, he was jumpy at the plate during the game and his approach was not good. It's early in the year and Wieters certainly has a good track record, so no one doubts he'll remain the top college bat in the draft class.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wish that I believed in Fate. I wish I didn't sleep so late. I used to be carried in the arms of cheerleaders.
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Yeah...but they're talking about a high school player and a college player. There's a world of difference between drafting someone right out of high school and drafting someone with a few years of college ball under their belts.
Anyway, Vitters will probably be pretty good (knock on wood), but you should never draft to fill a position on the field -- you just take the best guy available (which wasn't Vitters).
The draft that I'm really pissed about is still the Colvin pick. That was beyond moronic.
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<!--quoteo(post=20152:date=Feb 25 2009, 10:13 AM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Feb 25 2009, 10:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Yeah...but they're talking about a high school player and a college player. There's a world of difference between drafting someone right out of high school and drafting someone with a few years of college ball under their belts.
Anyway, Vitters will probably be pretty good (knock on wood), but you should never draft to fill a position on the field -- you just take the best guy available (which wasn't Vitters).
The draft that I'm really pissed about is still the Colvin pick. That was beyond moronic.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yet another pick that <b>at the time</b> seemed incredibly stupid. Hard to imagine it didn't work out. Well, at least the Cards took Colby Rasmus with the following pick.
Nothing to see here folks, move along.
There's nothing better than to realize that the good things about youth don't end with youth itself. It's a matter of realizing that life can be renewed every day you get out of bed without baggage. It's tough to get there, but it's better than the dark thoughts. -Lance
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<!--quoteo(post=20156:date=Feb 25 2009, 10:42 AM:name=KBwsb)-->QUOTE (KBwsb @ Feb 25 2009, 10:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=20152:date=Feb 25 2009, 10:13 AM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Feb 25 2009, 10:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Yeah...but they're talking about a high school player and a college player. There's a world of difference between drafting someone right out of high school and drafting someone with a few years of college ball under their belts.
Anyway, Vitters will probably be pretty good (knock on wood), but you should never draft to fill a position on the field -- you just take the best guy available (which wasn't Vitters).
The draft that I'm really pissed about is still the Colvin pick. That was beyond moronic.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yet another pick that <b>at the time</b> seemed incredibly stupid. Hard to imagine it didn't work out. Well, at least the Cards took Colby Rasmus with the following pick.
Nothing to see here folks, move along.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Rasmus is extremely overrated and actually kinda sucks, he and Colvin actually had very similar years last year, Colvin's may have even been better, but at AA instead of AAA. Look up the numbers.
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<!--quoteo(post=20157:date=Feb 25 2009, 10:46 AM:name=ruby23)-->QUOTE (ruby23 @ Feb 25 2009, 10:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=20156:date=Feb 25 2009, 10:42 AM:name=KBwsb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KBwsb @ Feb 25 2009, 10:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=20152:date=Feb 25 2009, 10:13 AM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Feb 25 2009, 10:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Yeah...but they're talking about a high school player and a college player. There's a world of difference between drafting someone right out of high school and drafting someone with a few years of college ball under their belts.
Anyway, Vitters will probably be pretty good (knock on wood), but you should never draft to fill a position on the field -- you just take the best guy available (which wasn't Vitters).
The draft that I'm really pissed about is still the Colvin pick. That was beyond moronic.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yet another pick that <b>at the time</b> seemed incredibly stupid. Hard to imagine it didn't work out. Well, at least the Cards took Colby Rasmus with the following pick.
Nothing to see here folks, move along.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Rasmus is extremely overrated and actually kinda sucks, he and Colvin actually had very similar years last year, Colvin's may have even been better, but at AA instead of AAA. Look up the numbers.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is kind of unarguable. Ballplayers constantly surprise you, as CPatt and Geo Soto have proven (in opposite ways).
Still, Rasmus is usually considered among the Top 5 or 10 or so in practically everyone's list of best prospects, while Colvin would likely be rated at about # 387th.
There's nothing better than to realize that the good things about youth don't end with youth itself. It's a matter of realizing that life can be renewed every day you get out of bed without baggage. It's tough to get there, but it's better than the dark thoughts. -Lance
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<!--quoteo(post=20162:date=Feb 25 2009, 11:02 AM:name=KBwsb)-->QUOTE (KBwsb @ Feb 25 2009, 11:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=20157:date=Feb 25 2009, 10:46 AM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Feb 25 2009, 10:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=20156:date=Feb 25 2009, 10:42 AM:name=KBwsb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KBwsb @ Feb 25 2009, 10:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=20152:date=Feb 25 2009, 10:13 AM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Feb 25 2009, 10:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Yeah...but they're talking about a high school player and a college player. There's a world of difference between drafting someone right out of high school and drafting someone with a few years of college ball under their belts.
Anyway, Vitters will probably be pretty good (knock on wood), but you should never draft to fill a position on the field -- you just take the best guy available (which wasn't Vitters).
The draft that I'm really pissed about is still the Colvin pick. That was beyond moronic.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yet another pick that <b>at the time</b> seemed incredibly stupid. Hard to imagine it didn't work out. Well, at least the Cards took Colby Rasmus with the following pick.
Nothing to see here folks, move along.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Rasmus is extremely overrated and actually kinda sucks, he and Colvin actually had very similar years last year, Colvin's may have even been better, but at AA instead of AAA. Look up the numbers.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is kind of unarguable. Ballplayers constantly surprise you, as CPatt and Geo Soto have proven (in opposite ways).
Still, Rasmus is usually considered among the Top 5 or 10 or so in practically everyone's list of best prospects, while Colvin would likely be rated at about # 387th.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which should be another indicator as to how much stock you can put into rankings. Production SHOULD mean more than rankings.
In 1998 BA's top prospect was Ben Grieve. #64 was Lance Berkman. #84 was David Ortiz.
Going through the 2001 top 25, I count a total of 5 guys who had any success with the team that drafted them. And that is counting Ichiro as a "prospect".
The point is, relying on these lists as if they have ALREADY proven something, is insane. Yes, it certainly looks like Wieters will be a stud. But it also looked like Patterson, Grieve, Travis Lee, and Ruben Mateo were going to be studs.
WHEN Weiters is a stud, and WHEN Vitters is proven to not be as good, you guys should brag all you want about how much smarter than Hendry you are. But we should probably let it happen FIRST, before we start sucking each other's dicks.
I wish that I believed in Fate. I wish I didn't sleep so late. I used to be carried in the arms of cheerleaders.
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<!--quoteo(post=20152:date=Feb 25 2009, 10:13 AM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Feb 25 2009, 10:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Anyway, Vitters will probably be pretty good (knock on wood), but you should never draft to fill a position on the field -- you just take the best guy available (which wasn't Vitters).<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You say that now. Look at the scouting reports I put up earlier. There were plenty of people that thought Vitters was a better prospect than Wieters. One was the best high school hitter, and one was the best college hitter. Wieters could end up better, but you simply can't say the Cubs decided NOT to take the "best guy available", when at the time they easily could have thought Vitters WAS the best guy available.
I wish that I believed in Fate. I wish I didn't sleep so late. I used to be carried in the arms of cheerleaders.
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<!--quoteo(post=20168:date=Feb 25 2009, 11:49 AM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Feb 25 2009, 11:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=20162:date=Feb 25 2009, 11:02 AM:name=KBwsb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KBwsb @ Feb 25 2009, 11:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=20157:date=Feb 25 2009, 10:46 AM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Feb 25 2009, 10:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=20156:date=Feb 25 2009, 10:42 AM:name=KBwsb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KBwsb @ Feb 25 2009, 10:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=20152:date=Feb 25 2009, 10:13 AM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Feb 25 2009, 10:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Yeah...but they're talking about a high school player and a college player. There's a world of difference between drafting someone right out of high school and drafting someone with a few years of college ball under their belts.
Anyway, Vitters will probably be pretty good (knock on wood), but you should never draft to fill a position on the field -- you just take the best guy available (which wasn't Vitters).
The draft that I'm really pissed about is still the Colvin pick. That was beyond moronic.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yet another pick that <b>at the time</b> seemed incredibly stupid. Hard to imagine it didn't work out. Well, at least the Cards took Colby Rasmus with the following pick.
Nothing to see here folks, move along.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Rasmus is extremely overrated and actually kinda sucks, he and Colvin actually had very similar years last year, Colvin's may have even been better, but at AA instead of AAA. Look up the numbers.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is kind of unarguable. Ballplayers constantly surprise you, as CPatt and Geo Soto have proven (in opposite ways).
Still, Rasmus is usually considered among the Top 5 or 10 or so in practically everyone's list of best prospects, while Colvin would likely be rated at about # 387th.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which should be another indicator as to how much stock you can put into rankings. Production SHOULD mean more than rankings.
In 1998 BA's top prospect was Ben Grieve. #64 was Lance Berkman. #84 was David Ortiz.
Going through the 2001 top 25, I count a total of 5 guys who had any success with the team that drafted them. And that is counting Ichiro as a "prospect".
The point is, relying on these lists as if they have ALREADY proven something, is insane. Yes, it certainly looks like Wieters will be a stud. But it also looked like Patterson, Grieve, Travis Lee, and Ruben Mateo were going to be studs.
WHEN Weiters is a stud, and WHEN Vitters is proven to not be as good, you guys should brag all you want about how much smarter than Hendry you are. But we should probably let it happen FIRST, before we start sucking each other's dicks.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
bt is awesome. i try not to be on the opposite side of him in an argument whenever possible.
Wang.
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<!--quoteo(post=20169:date=Feb 25 2009, 11:52 AM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Feb 25 2009, 11:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=20152:date=Feb 25 2009, 10:13 AM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Feb 25 2009, 10:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Anyway, Vitters will probably be pretty good (knock on wood), but you should never draft to fill a position on the field -- you just take the best guy available (which wasn't Vitters).<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You say that now. Look at the scouting reports I put up earlier. There were plenty of people that thought Vitters was a better prospect than Wieters. One was the best high school hitter, and one was the best college hitter. Wieters could end up better, but you simply can't say the Cubs decided NOT to take the "best guy available", when at the time they easily could have thought Vitters WAS the best guy available.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because the draft is such an inexact science, you try and eliminate as much risk and guesswork as possible. A college player is much closer to the finished product than a high school player. So, if a high school hitter and a college hitter are both projecting about the same, and they are both available, then you take the college hitter.
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<!--quoteo(post=20186:date=Feb 25 2009, 01:06 PM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Feb 25 2009, 01:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=20169:date=Feb 25 2009, 11:52 AM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Feb 25 2009, 11:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=20152:date=Feb 25 2009, 10:13 AM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Feb 25 2009, 10:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Anyway, Vitters will probably be pretty good (knock on wood), but you should never draft to fill a position on the field -- you just take the best guy available (which wasn't Vitters).<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You say that now. Look at the scouting reports I put up earlier. There were plenty of people that thought Vitters was a better prospect than Wieters. One was the best high school hitter, and one was the best college hitter. Wieters could end up better, but you simply can't say the Cubs decided NOT to take the "best guy available", when at the time they easily could have thought Vitters WAS the best guy available.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because the draft is such an inexact science, you try and eliminate as much risk and guesswork as possible. A college player is much closer to the finished product than a high school player. So, if a high school hitter and a college hitter are both projecting about the same, and they are both available, then you take the college hitter.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True. But only true if both are projecting about the same. If you project those 2 now, Wieters is the obvious choice. If you were projecting a year ago, the Cubs could have easily thought Vitters had the higher ceiling.
Let me try a different angle here. In February of 2008, how many people would have taken Phil Hughes over David Price? Hughes was basically ready for the majors, and Price was 22 and playing in A ball. Wouldn't Hughes have been the "obvious" choice? Which guy would you take now? Hell, I've seen lists created 365 days ago which ranked Homer Bailey over David Price.
I'm not saying that Vitters will be better than Wieters. I'm simply saying that taking their status now, and retroactively applying it to a decision Wilken had to make at the time is unfair. It's only "obvious" now. And the fact neither of them have done anything in the majors yet would indicate it's certainly at least possible it won't be so obvious in 12 months.
I wish that I believed in Fate. I wish I didn't sleep so late. I used to be carried in the arms of cheerleaders.
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My memory of the time of the actual draft is a bit foggy, but I don't remember anyone having Vitters ranked ahead of Wieters leading up to draft day.
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<!--quoteo(post=20223:date=Feb 25 2009, 02:49 PM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Feb 25 2009, 02:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->My memory of the time of the actual draft is a bit foggy, but I don't remember anyone having Vitters ranked ahead of Wieters leading up to draft day.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I reacll it basically being a toss up.
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<!--quoteo(post=20225:date=Feb 25 2009, 02:52 PM:name=ruby23)-->QUOTE (ruby23 @ Feb 25 2009, 02:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=20223:date=Feb 25 2009, 02:49 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Feb 25 2009, 02:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->My memory of the time of the actual draft is a bit foggy, but I don't remember anyone having Vitters ranked ahead of Wieters leading up to draft day.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I reacll it basically being a toss up.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If it's a toss-up and one player is coming out of college and the other is coming out of high school, then it's a no brainer.
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<!--quoteo(post=20229:date=Feb 25 2009, 02:56 PM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Feb 25 2009, 02:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=20225:date=Feb 25 2009, 02:52 PM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Feb 25 2009, 02:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=20223:date=Feb 25 2009, 02:49 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Feb 25 2009, 02:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->My memory of the time of the actual draft is a bit foggy, but I don't remember anyone having Vitters ranked ahead of Wieters leading up to draft day.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I reacll it basically being a toss up.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If it's a toss-up and one player is coming out of college and the other is coming out of high school, then it's a no brainer.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If I'm drafting, I'm taking little to no high school position players in general and I'm not selecting a single high school pitcher.
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<!--quoteo(post=20234:date=Feb 25 2009, 03:04 PM:name=ruby23)-->QUOTE (ruby23 @ Feb 25 2009, 03:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=20229:date=Feb 25 2009, 02:56 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Feb 25 2009, 02:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=20225:date=Feb 25 2009, 02:52 PM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Feb 25 2009, 02:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=20223:date=Feb 25 2009, 02:49 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Feb 25 2009, 02:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->My memory of the time of the actual draft is a bit foggy, but I don't remember anyone having Vitters ranked ahead of Wieters leading up to draft day.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I reacll it basically being a toss up.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If it's a toss-up and one player is coming out of college and the other is coming out of high school, then it's a no brainer.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If I'm drafting, I'm taking little to no high school position players in general and I'm not selecting a single high school pitcher.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree 100%.
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