Fergie, Maddux To Have #31 Retired By Cubs

[veryzer]

you guys could be right. i don't think you are, but you could be. but saying he won't make it is no less ridiculous that saying he will right after he dies.

[Runnys]

<!--quoteo(post=35326:date=May 4 2009, 12:30 PM:name=PcB)-->QUOTE (PcB @ May 4 2009, 12:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=35324:date=May 4 2009, 12:23 PM:name=Runnys)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runnys @ May 4 2009, 12:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=35304:date=May 4 2009, 10:54 AM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ May 4 2009, 10:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=35287:date=May 4 2009, 09:56 AM:name=Kid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kid @ May 4 2009, 09:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Too bad he cheated.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So did everyone else, he was just better at it. Retire his number and send him to the HOF.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

This is where I am at. If he took steroids, he didn't get caught doing it. As for the corked bat thing, that was one instance, but how many other bats did he break before and after that that did not have any cork? Also, IIRC, that was the ONLY bat of his that had cork in it.

I am not saying that Sosa is innocent because I believe he did something, however, he hasn't been named like A-Rod, Bonds, Palmeiro, Tejada etc. He has 600 + HR's, he should be in 1st ballot.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
His numbers don't matter. Bonds won't get in 1st ballot. The reason he's not getting in is because of the people voting to keep him out. A huge % of the voters are not going to vote for someone involved with steroids, as you can see with Big Mac last year. He would be a first ballot guy, but why did he only get like 5% of the vote? It's just not gonna happen for ANY of these guys for a long time, until these voters get replaced by younger voters who understand the era.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

My thing though is that what is the reason that his numbers don't matter? He has not been linked to steroids at all except through speculation. Bonds has been indicted for perjury. Giambi, A-Rod, and Tejada have all admitted to taking it or lying about it. Sosa has always held that he was clean and his name has not come up in any official documentation as far as i can remember. His numbers should matter more than anyone else's IMO.

As for the voters not voting for someone involved in steroids, that is fine. But what proof do they have that Sammy was?

[PcB]

<!--quoteo(post=35386:date=May 4 2009, 02:56 PM:name=Runnys)-->QUOTE (Runnys @ May 4 2009, 02:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=35326:date=May 4 2009, 12:30 PM:name=PcB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PcB @ May 4 2009, 12:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=35324:date=May 4 2009, 12:23 PM:name=Runnys)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runnys @ May 4 2009, 12:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=35304:date=May 4 2009, 10:54 AM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ May 4 2009, 10:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=35287:date=May 4 2009, 09:56 AM:name=Kid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kid @ May 4 2009, 09:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Too bad he cheated.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So did everyone else, he was just better at it. Retire his number and send him to the HOF.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

This is where I am at. If he took steroids, he didn't get caught doing it. As for the corked bat thing, that was one instance, but how many other bats did he break before and after that that did not have any cork? Also, IIRC, that was the ONLY bat of his that had cork in it.

I am not saying that Sosa is innocent because I believe he did something, however, he hasn't been named like A-Rod, Bonds, Palmeiro, Tejada etc. He has 600 + HR's, he should be in 1st ballot.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
His numbers don't matter. Bonds won't get in 1st ballot. The reason he's not getting in is because of the people voting to keep him out. A huge % of the voters are not going to vote for someone involved with steroids, as you can see with Big Mac last year. He would be a first ballot guy, but why did he only get like 5% of the vote? It's just not gonna happen for ANY of these guys for a long time, until these voters get replaced by younger voters who understand the era.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

My thing though is that what is the reason that his numbers don't matter? He has not been linked to steroids at all except through speculation. Bonds has been indicted for perjury. Giambi, A-Rod, and Tejada have all admitted to taking it or lying about it. Sosa has always held that he was clean and his name has not come up in any official documentation as far as i can remember. His numbers should matter more than anyone else's IMO.

As for the voters not voting for someone involved in steroids, that is fine. But what proof do they have that Sammy was?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think their proof is that they they weren't born yesterday and they're not retarded. There is no way any person in the world can think that Sammy Sosa is 100% clean. It's impossible. Why did he suddenly forget how to speak English in front of Congress if he had nothing to hide?

[Butcher]

<!--quoteo(post=35389:date=May 4 2009, 03:11 PM:name=PcB)-->QUOTE (PcB @ May 4 2009, 03:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=35386:date=May 4 2009, 02:56 PM:name=Runnys)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runnys @ May 4 2009, 02:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=35326:date=May 4 2009, 12:30 PM:name=PcB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PcB @ May 4 2009, 12:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=35324:date=May 4 2009, 12:23 PM:name=Runnys)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runnys @ May 4 2009, 12:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=35304:date=May 4 2009, 10:54 AM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ May 4 2009, 10:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=35287:date=May 4 2009, 09:56 AM:name=Kid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kid @ May 4 2009, 09:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Too bad he cheated.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So did everyone else, he was just better at it. Retire his number and send him to the HOF.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

This is where I am at. If he took steroids, he didn't get caught doing it. As for the corked bat thing, that was one instance, but how many other bats did he break before and after that that did not have any cork? Also, IIRC, that was the ONLY bat of his that had cork in it.

I am not saying that Sosa is innocent because I believe he did something, however, he hasn't been named like A-Rod, Bonds, Palmeiro, Tejada etc. He has 600 + HR's, he should be in 1st ballot.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
His numbers don't matter. Bonds won't get in 1st ballot. The reason he's not getting in is because of the people voting to keep him out. A huge % of the voters are not going to vote for someone involved with steroids, as you can see with Big Mac last year. He would be a first ballot guy, but why did he only get like 5% of the vote? It's just not gonna happen for ANY of these guys for a long time, until these voters get replaced by younger voters who understand the era.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

My thing though is that what is the reason that his numbers don't matter? He has not been linked to steroids at all except through speculation. Bonds has been indicted for perjury. Giambi, A-Rod, and Tejada have all admitted to taking it or lying about it. Sosa has always held that he was clean and his name has not come up in any official documentation as far as i can remember. His numbers should matter more than anyone else's IMO.

As for the voters not voting for someone involved in steroids, that is fine. But what proof do they have that Sammy was?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think their proof is that they they weren't born yesterday and they're not retarded. There is no way any person in the world can think that Sammy Sosa is 100% clean. It's impossible. Why did he suddenly forget how to speak English in front of Congress if he had nothing to hide?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
None of that qualifies as "proof." However, I'd argue with your claim that the voters aren't retarded -- many of the voters are quite retarded.

[PcB]

<!--quoteo(post=35391:date=May 4 2009, 03:17 PM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ May 4 2009, 03:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=35389:date=May 4 2009, 03:11 PM:name=PcB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PcB @ May 4 2009, 03:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=35386:date=May 4 2009, 02:56 PM:name=Runnys)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runnys @ May 4 2009, 02:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=35326:date=May 4 2009, 12:30 PM:name=PcB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PcB @ May 4 2009, 12:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=35324:date=May 4 2009, 12:23 PM:name=Runnys)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runnys @ May 4 2009, 12:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=35304:date=May 4 2009, 10:54 AM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ May 4 2009, 10:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=35287:date=May 4 2009, 09:56 AM:name=Kid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kid @ May 4 2009, 09:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Too bad he cheated.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So did everyone else, he was just better at it. Retire his number and send him to the HOF.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

This is where I am at. If he took steroids, he didn't get caught doing it. As for the corked bat thing, that was one instance, but how many other bats did he break before and after that that did not have any cork? Also, IIRC, that was the ONLY bat of his that had cork in it.

I am not saying that Sosa is innocent because I believe he did something, however, he hasn't been named like A-Rod, Bonds, Palmeiro, Tejada etc. He has 600 + HR's, he should be in 1st ballot.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
His numbers don't matter. Bonds won't get in 1st ballot. The reason he's not getting in is because of the people voting to keep him out. A huge % of the voters are not going to vote for someone involved with steroids, as you can see with Big Mac last year. He would be a first ballot guy, but why did he only get like 5% of the vote? It's just not gonna happen for ANY of these guys for a long time, until these voters get replaced by younger voters who understand the era.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

My thing though is that what is the reason that his numbers don't matter? He has not been linked to steroids at all except through speculation. Bonds has been indicted for perjury. Giambi, A-Rod, and Tejada have all admitted to taking it or lying about it. Sosa has always held that he was clean and his name has not come up in any official documentation as far as i can remember. His numbers should matter more than anyone else's IMO.

As for the voters not voting for someone involved in steroids, that is fine. But what proof do they have that Sammy was?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think their proof is that they they weren't born yesterday and they're not retarded. There is no way any person in the world can think that Sammy Sosa is 100% clean. It's impossible. Why did he suddenly forget how to speak English in front of Congress if he had nothing to hide?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
None of that qualifies as "proof." However, I'd argue with your claim that the voters aren't retarded -- many of the voters are quite retarded.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That works even better. They're retarded and they still know Sosa isn't innocent.

Also, I would hazard a guess that if you talked to 100 people who watch baseball and aren't from Chicago what the first word they think of when they heard the name Sammy Sosa is that they would say steroids.

[Butcher]

<!--quoteo(post=35393:date=May 4 2009, 03:21 PM:name=PcB)-->QUOTE (PcB @ May 4 2009, 03:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=35391:date=May 4 2009, 03:17 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ May 4 2009, 03:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=35389:date=May 4 2009, 03:11 PM:name=PcB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PcB @ May 4 2009, 03:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=35386:date=May 4 2009, 02:56 PM:name=Runnys)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runnys @ May 4 2009, 02:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=35326:date=May 4 2009, 12:30 PM:name=PcB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PcB @ May 4 2009, 12:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=35324:date=May 4 2009, 12:23 PM:name=Runnys)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runnys @ May 4 2009, 12:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=35304:date=May 4 2009, 10:54 AM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ May 4 2009, 10:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=35287:date=May 4 2009, 09:56 AM:name=Kid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kid @ May 4 2009, 09:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Too bad he cheated.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So did everyone else, he was just better at it. Retire his number and send him to the HOF.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

This is where I am at. If he took steroids, he didn't get caught doing it. As for the corked bat thing, that was one instance, but how many other bats did he break before and after that that did not have any cork? Also, IIRC, that was the ONLY bat of his that had cork in it.

I am not saying that Sosa is innocent because I believe he did something, however, he hasn't been named like A-Rod, Bonds, Palmeiro, Tejada etc. He has 600 + HR's, he should be in 1st ballot.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
His numbers don't matter. Bonds won't get in 1st ballot. The reason he's not getting in is because of the people voting to keep him out. A huge % of the voters are not going to vote for someone involved with steroids, as you can see with Big Mac last year. He would be a first ballot guy, but why did he only get like 5% of the vote? It's just not gonna happen for ANY of these guys for a long time, until these voters get replaced by younger voters who understand the era.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

My thing though is that what is the reason that his numbers don't matter? He has not been linked to steroids at all except through speculation. Bonds has been indicted for perjury. Giambi, A-Rod, and Tejada have all admitted to taking it or lying about it. Sosa has always held that he was clean and his name has not come up in any official documentation as far as i can remember. His numbers should matter more than anyone else's IMO.

As for the voters not voting for someone involved in steroids, that is fine. But what proof do they have that Sammy was?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think their proof is that they they weren't born yesterday and they're not retarded. There is no way any person in the world can think that Sammy Sosa is 100% clean. It's impossible. Why did he suddenly forget how to speak English in front of Congress if he had nothing to hide?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
None of that qualifies as "proof." However, I'd argue with your claim that the voters aren't retarded -- many of the voters are quite retarded.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That works even better. They're retarded and they still know Sosa isn't innocent.

Also, I would hazard a guess that if you talked to 100 people who watch baseball and aren't from Chicago what the first word they think of when they heard the name Sammy Sosa is that they would say steroids.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Does that qualify as proof?

[PcB]

<!--quoteo(post=35400:date=May 4 2009, 03:31 PM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ May 4 2009, 03:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=35393:date=May 4 2009, 03:21 PM:name=PcB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PcB @ May 4 2009, 03:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=35391:date=May 4 2009, 03:17 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ May 4 2009, 03:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=35389:date=May 4 2009, 03:11 PM:name=PcB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PcB @ May 4 2009, 03:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=35386:date=May 4 2009, 02:56 PM:name=Runnys)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runnys @ May 4 2009, 02:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=35326:date=May 4 2009, 12:30 PM:name=PcB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PcB @ May 4 2009, 12:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=35324:date=May 4 2009, 12:23 PM:name=Runnys)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runnys @ May 4 2009, 12:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=35304:date=May 4 2009, 10:54 AM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ May 4 2009, 10:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=35287:date=May 4 2009, 09:56 AM:name=Kid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kid @ May 4 2009, 09:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Too bad he cheated.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So did everyone else, he was just better at it. Retire his number and send him to the HOF.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

This is where I am at. If he took steroids, he didn't get caught doing it. As for the corked bat thing, that was one instance, but how many other bats did he break before and after that that did not have any cork? Also, IIRC, that was the ONLY bat of his that had cork in it.

I am not saying that Sosa is innocent because I believe he did something, however, he hasn't been named like A-Rod, Bonds, Palmeiro, Tejada etc. He has 600 + HR's, he should be in 1st ballot.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
His numbers don't matter. Bonds won't get in 1st ballot. The reason he's not getting in is because of the people voting to keep him out. A huge % of the voters are not going to vote for someone involved with steroids, as you can see with Big Mac last year. He would be a first ballot guy, but why did he only get like 5% of the vote? It's just not gonna happen for ANY of these guys for a long time, until these voters get replaced by younger voters who understand the era.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

My thing though is that what is the reason that his numbers don't matter? He has not been linked to steroids at all except through speculation. Bonds has been indicted for perjury. Giambi, A-Rod, and Tejada have all admitted to taking it or lying about it. Sosa has always held that he was clean and his name has not come up in any official documentation as far as i can remember. His numbers should matter more than anyone else's IMO.

As for the voters not voting for someone involved in steroids, that is fine. But what proof do they have that Sammy was?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think their proof is that they they weren't born yesterday and they're not retarded. There is no way any person in the world can think that Sammy Sosa is 100% clean. It's impossible. Why did he suddenly forget how to speak English in front of Congress if he had nothing to hide?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
None of that qualifies as "proof." However, I'd argue with your claim that the voters aren't retarded -- many of the voters are quite retarded.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That works even better. They're retarded and they still know Sosa isn't innocent.

Also, I would hazard a guess that if you talked to 100 people who watch baseball and aren't from Chicago what the first word they think of when they heard the name Sammy Sosa is that they would say steroids.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Does that qualify as proof?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nope, and I'm fine with that.

Does proof really prove anything? O.J got away with murder and there was all kinds of "proof" he did it.

[Butcher]

<!--quoteo(post=35415:date=May 4 2009, 03:49 PM:name=PcB)-->QUOTE (PcB @ May 4 2009, 03:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=35400:date=May 4 2009, 03:31 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ May 4 2009, 03:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=35393:date=May 4 2009, 03:21 PM:name=PcB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PcB @ May 4 2009, 03:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=35391:date=May 4 2009, 03:17 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ May 4 2009, 03:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=35389:date=May 4 2009, 03:11 PM:name=PcB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PcB @ May 4 2009, 03:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=35386:date=May 4 2009, 02:56 PM:name=Runnys)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runnys @ May 4 2009, 02:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=35326:date=May 4 2009, 12:30 PM:name=PcB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PcB @ May 4 2009, 12:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=35324:date=May 4 2009, 12:23 PM:name=Runnys)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runnys @ May 4 2009, 12:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=35304:date=May 4 2009, 10:54 AM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ May 4 2009, 10:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=35287:date=May 4 2009, 09:56 AM:name=Kid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kid @ May 4 2009, 09:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Too bad he cheated.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So did everyone else, he was just better at it. Retire his number and send him to the HOF.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

This is where I am at. If he took steroids, he didn't get caught doing it. As for the corked bat thing, that was one instance, but how many other bats did he break before and after that that did not have any cork? Also, IIRC, that was the ONLY bat of his that had cork in it.

I am not saying that Sosa is innocent because I believe he did something, however, he hasn't been named like A-Rod, Bonds, Palmeiro, Tejada etc. He has 600 + HR's, he should be in 1st ballot.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
His numbers don't matter. Bonds won't get in 1st ballot. The reason he's not getting in is because of the people voting to keep him out. A huge % of the voters are not going to vote for someone involved with steroids, as you can see with Big Mac last year. He would be a first ballot guy, but why did he only get like 5% of the vote? It's just not gonna happen for ANY of these guys for a long time, until these voters get replaced by younger voters who understand the era.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

My thing though is that what is the reason that his numbers don't matter? He has not been linked to steroids at all except through speculation. Bonds has been indicted for perjury. Giambi, A-Rod, and Tejada have all admitted to taking it or lying about it. Sosa has always held that he was clean and his name has not come up in any official documentation as far as i can remember. His numbers should matter more than anyone else's IMO.

As for the voters not voting for someone involved in steroids, that is fine. But what proof do they have that Sammy was?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think their proof is that they they weren't born yesterday and they're not retarded. There is no way any person in the world can think that Sammy Sosa is 100% clean. It's impossible. Why did he suddenly forget how to speak English in front of Congress if he had nothing to hide?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
None of that qualifies as "proof." However, I'd argue with your claim that the voters aren't retarded -- many of the voters are quite retarded.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That works even better. They're retarded and they still know Sosa isn't innocent.

Also, I would hazard a guess that if you talked to 100 people who watch baseball and aren't from Chicago what the first word they think of when they heard the name Sammy Sosa is that they would say steroids.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Does that qualify as proof?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nope, and I'm fine with that.

Does proof really prove anything? O.J got away with murder and there was all kinds of "proof" he did it.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You kept giving examples of "proof" that weren't really "proof."

That's all I'm saying.

[PcB]

I know. The O.J thing was just a joke.

[cigar]

None of those guys that were in on that meeting in front of Congress are ever getting in the Hall. That time period is always going to be looked at as dark time in baseball. Even if they do it is going to be a long long time from now. I am sorry but if you guys think that Sosa is getting on first ballot or even should when the votes for McGwire actually went down then you are nuts. (Te former Oakland A’s and St. Louis Cardinals star saw his Hall of Fame vote totals fall from 23.6 percent in his first two years of eligibility to 21.9 percent in his third year) Sosa doesn't have to be proven guilty. He is guilty by association whether anyone thinks it is fair or not. His numbers and his body inflated at the exact same time as the rest of baseball did. That speaks volumes for most. True he may have still done it better than anyone else but that is also what is going to make the writers and fans have more hate towards him.

I always get a kick out of the MLB channel on XM because when they talk about great ex players they never talk about McGwire, Sosa, Bonds and now Clemens. When what few callers they do let get through to talk about those guys they always have a lot of hate in their words. A lot of baseball fans still have not forgiven those players or that time period.

[Lance]

So Clemens isn't getting in? If Clemens doesn't, then Sammy doesn't, for sure. Sammy will always be in my personal hall of fame. There has never been a more exciting player in Cubs history.

[bz]

IMO, it would be worse for baseball if those players don't get voted in. Considering all sports have had periods of shadiness, and baseball has never been an exception, it doesn't make sense to keep these guys out. Base their numbers against their peers and decide who is the best out of them. That's what has been done and should always be done.

[SandbergMVP1984]

<!--quoteo(post=35581:date=May 4 2009, 11:43 PM:name=bz)-->QUOTE (bz @ May 4 2009, 11:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->IMO, it would be worse for baseball if those players don't get voted in. Considering all sports have had periods of shadiness, and baseball has never been an exception, it doesn't make sense to keep these guys out. Base their numbers against their peers and decide who is the best out of them. That's what has been done and should always be done.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is why Santo isn't getting in, because people aren't basing their assessment of him on his peers. His offensive numbers don't look "great" because he played in the most pitcher dominated era of the game. It's a travishamockery.

[veryzer]

sosa, bonds and clemens will all get in. maybe not right away, but it's gonna happen. they are the best players of their era, they will get in.

in 1930, the national league juiced the ball because the american league had all the sstars and were drawing all the fans. how many of those players got in? many. as the years go by, the cloud will pass, people will forget, and players will get in. thats the way life is.

sosa will be a hall of famer, and i'll love it even more knowing so many people are gonna be pissed about it.