Fergie, Maddux To Have #31 Retired By Cubs

[Kid]

Craine Kenney: public speaker

[dvdastud]

<!--quoteo(post=35056:date=May 3 2009, 11:21 AM:name=Coldneck)-->QUOTE (Coldneck @ May 3 2009, 11:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=35053:date=May 3 2009, 11:24 AM:name=dvdastud)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dvdastud @ May 3 2009, 11:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->If anyone needs their number retired it's Grace.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I'm a huge Grace fan, but couldn't disagree more. I also don't think Maddux should be recognized. He's a Brave.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I don't get the Grace disrespect from a lot of people. Everyone worships Ron Santo and Grace was just as good as he ever was.

[Clapp]

<!--quoteo(post=35057:date=May 3 2009, 11:48 AM:name=Giff)-->QUOTE (Giff @ May 3 2009, 11:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->In my mind, 31 wouldn't be retired for just one of the two guys. I mean, if Fergie was gonna get his number retired, I think it would have been a long time. However, since two great, but not quite legendary, Cubs wore the number, it deserves to be retired for the both of them.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Absolutely.

[PcB]

<!--quoteo(post=35061:date=May 3 2009, 01:00 PM:name=dvdastud)-->QUOTE (dvdastud @ May 3 2009, 01:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=35056:date=May 3 2009, 11:21 AM:name=Coldneck)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coldneck @ May 3 2009, 11:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=35053:date=May 3 2009, 11:24 AM:name=dvdastud)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dvdastud @ May 3 2009, 11:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->If anyone needs their number retired it's Grace.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I'm a huge Grace fan, but couldn't disagree more. I also don't think Maddux should be recognized. He's a Brave.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I don't get the Grace disrespect from a lot of people. Everyone worships Ron Santo and Grace was just as good as he ever was.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I love Gracie.

[Clapp]

<!--quoteo(post=35065:date=May 3 2009, 12:10 PM:name=PcB)-->QUOTE (PcB @ May 3 2009, 12:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=35061:date=May 3 2009, 01:00 PM:name=dvdastud)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dvdastud @ May 3 2009, 01:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=35056:date=May 3 2009, 11:21 AM:name=Coldneck)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coldneck @ May 3 2009, 11:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=35053:date=May 3 2009, 11:24 AM:name=dvdastud)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dvdastud @ May 3 2009, 11:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->If anyone needs their number retired it's Grace.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I'm a huge Grace fan, but couldn't disagree more. I also don't think Maddux should be recognized. He's a Brave.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I don't get the Grace disrespect from a lot of people. Everyone worships Ron Santo and Grace was just as good as he ever was.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I love Gracie.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
People are just mad about what he's said about the organization since he left. He was honest, and pretty much right. I love Grace.

[Kid]

Putting aside whether he earned it (and I don't think he did - keep in mind, that this was Grace's first and only year on the HOF ballot, as he didn't even earn the necessary 5% of votes to see a 2nd year on the ballot), whether or not Grace's comments were ultimately true or not, when someone leaves an organization and then proceeds to trash it, he it is going to have a difficult case to make that he deserves to have his number retired by that organization.

[dvdastud]

<!--quoteo(post=35069:date=May 3 2009, 12:22 PM:name=Clapp)-->QUOTE (Clapp @ May 3 2009, 12:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=35065:date=May 3 2009, 12:10 PM:name=PcB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PcB @ May 3 2009, 12:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=35061:date=May 3 2009, 01:00 PM:name=dvdastud)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dvdastud @ May 3 2009, 01:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=35056:date=May 3 2009, 11:21 AM:name=Coldneck)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coldneck @ May 3 2009, 11:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=35053:date=May 3 2009, 11:24 AM:name=dvdastud)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dvdastud @ May 3 2009, 11:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->If anyone needs their number retired it's Grace.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I'm a huge Grace fan, but couldn't disagree more. I also don't think Maddux should be recognized. He's a Brave.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I don't get the Grace disrespect from a lot of people. Everyone worships Ron Santo and Grace was just as good as he ever was.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I love Gracie.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
People are just mad about what he's said about the organization since he left. He was honest, and pretty much right. I love Grace.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

That is how I feel. I grew up watching Grace, and he will always be one of my second favorite player of all time.

[Bricklayer]

<!--quoteo(post=35077:date=May 3 2009, 01:50 PM:name=dvdastud)-->QUOTE (dvdastud @ May 3 2009, 01:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=35069:date=May 3 2009, 12:22 PM:name=Clapp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Clapp @ May 3 2009, 12:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=35065:date=May 3 2009, 12:10 PM:name=PcB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PcB @ May 3 2009, 12:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=35061:date=May 3 2009, 01:00 PM:name=dvdastud)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dvdastud @ May 3 2009, 01:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=35056:date=May 3 2009, 11:21 AM:name=Coldneck)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coldneck @ May 3 2009, 11:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=35053:date=May 3 2009, 11:24 AM:name=dvdastud)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dvdastud @ May 3 2009, 11:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->If anyone needs their number retired it's Grace.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I'm a huge Grace fan, but couldn't disagree more. I also don't think Maddux should be recognized. He's a Brave.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I don't get the Grace disrespect from a lot of people. Everyone worships Ron Santo and Grace was just as good as he ever was.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I love Gracie.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
People are just mad about what he's said about the organization since he left. He was honest, and pretty much right. I love Grace.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

That is how I feel. I grew up watching Grace, and he will always be one of my second favorite player of all time.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

When he left he did a little more than just trash the club. At the time he was a free agent he made it public that he would accept arbitration if the Cubs offered it. So the Cubs declined, he signed with AZ and then said that he purposely called their bluff that so that the Cubs couldn't get a extra draft pick.

As much as I liked Grace when he was here, he turned into a class A prick when he left. The fact is, he was a guy who never drove in 100 RBI in a season, he was at the end of his career and the Cubs didn't want to hold on to the guy for couple of more years, especially when he was unwilling to help transition in Choi when it was going to be his time.

[kbwsb]

I'm unsure of how I feel about Grace. I loved him as a Cub, but he definitely left the team on a sour, bitter note. And who could forget his little speech right after Luis Gonzalez's bloop single won the 2001 World Series; when an on-field reporter asked Grace how he felt to win the championship, he said, "Yeah, the Cubs didn't think I was good enough to be their first baseman, but I guess I'm good enough play first for the <i>world champions</i>."

Talk about bitter.

Brief note: I met him one time at the Phoenix airport, and he was unfailingly pleasant, talked baseball for 5 minutes, and eventually had to leave because his ride was there (one of the 5 most beautiful women I have ever seen in my life). So, for whatever that's worth, I thought he was a somewhat cool guy.

[Addison]

<!--quoteo(post=35057:date=May 3 2009, 12:48 PM:name=Giff)-->QUOTE (Giff @ May 3 2009, 12:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->In my mind, 31 wouldn't be retired for just one of the two guys. I mean, if Fergie was gonna get his number retired, I think it would have been a long time. However, since two great, but not quite legendary, Cubs wore the number, it deserves to be retired for the both of them.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Well said and I agree for the most part. I do think that given their careers, they are both legendary in my eyes and am proud that they both wore a Cubs jersey.

[Addison]

Grace = No.

Dawson = Yes.

[Clapp]

Putting his remarks aside, I don't know if Grace should have his number retired, but it's debatable for sure.

As a Cub, he...

Led MLB in hits in the 90s

Went to 3 All-Star games

Won 4 gold gloves

Was top 10 in the NL in batting average 8 times

Was top 10 in the NL in on-base percentage 7 times

Had over 1,000 RBI

Got MVP votes in 4 seasons

Played a key role in going to the playoffs twice, something very few Cubs did.

[rok]

I don't think we need to retire any more numbers for a long time. Unless we develop a HOFer in the near future, there's no need to. I love both Grace and Dawson, but having your number retired is forever. I don't think they have earned it. Maddux probably didn't because his best years were in Atlanta, but I can at least live with it because he shared Fergie's number. Otherwise, I don't see the point.

But you can't start retiring the number of every All Star who's played for your team. It would lessen the honor.

[Clapp]

<!--quoteo(post=35239:date=May 3 2009, 06:32 PM:name=rok)-->QUOTE (rok @ May 3 2009, 06:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I don't think we need to retire any more numbers for a long time. Unless we develop a HOFer in the near future, there's no need to. I love both Grace and Dawson, but having your number retired is forever. I don't think they have earned it. Maddux probably didn't because his best years were in Atlanta, but I can at least live with it because he shared Fergie's number. Otherwise, I don't see the point.

But you can't start retiring the number of every All Star who's played for your team. It would lessen the honor.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree.

[Giff]

<!--quoteo(post=35239:date=May 3 2009, 07:32 PM:name=rok)-->QUOTE (rok @ May 3 2009, 07:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I don't think we need to retire any more numbers for a long time. Unless we develop a HOFer in the near future, there's no need to. I love both Grace and Dawson, but having your number retired is forever. I don't think they have earned it. Maddux probably didn't because his best years were in Atlanta, but I can at least live with it because he shared Fergie's number. Otherwise, I don't see the point.

But you can't start retiring the number of every All Star who's played for your team. It would lessen the honor.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I definitely agree with that. By my memory and from most people I've talked to about, Grace may have been the most adored Cub of the past couple decades (along with Dawson), and he was a very good player, but having your number retired is something special. You have to be Hall of Fame material, and even though I think Grace deserves more consideration than he got (leading a decade in hits is a terrific accomplishment), he's nowhere near the level of Santo, Ernie, Billy, Ryno, and Fergie/Maddux.

One could potentially make a case Sosa deserves it, but there's no way that happens with the way things ended. And if I had to choose one person from this team that has the best chance, I think if Ramirez sticks around for another 8 years and continues to rake and possibly lead the team to a pennant and beyond (all of which I think are within the realm of possibility), he'd be my guy.