Is Energy/Chemistry Worth a Damn?

[vitaminB]

Speaking of Clutch, what ever happened to that band? They were pretty fucking good.

Clutch is best described by looking at Robert Horry. That man was a mediocre at best NBA player, but damn if he didn't shoot 100% from the three point line when it mattered the most. That's a guy who plays better than he really is when it matters the most. Now I'm sure that at least some of that clutchness is attributed to being able to overcome nerves and fears when the game is on the line, but there is some other intangible quality that makes someone clutch.

[Butcher]

Pick any five players at random, and check out their splits for the last few seasons. You'll find that their stats from year to year in the various "clutch" situations (RISP, late-inning pressure, postseason) can vary widely, with no rhyme or reason to the splits. <i>But over a large enough sample, players will hit in given situations pretty much as they do overall. </i>

Derek Jeter is a good example, because he has appeared in a TON of playoff games -- and probably a large enough sample size to make a case. He is also considered a "clutch" player by many.

Jeter's career averages: 316/387/459

Jeter's postseason averages: 309/377/469

Practically identical.


Now...I'm not saying there aren't "clutch" performances. There are. There have to be. But every player in baseball is capable of a clutch performance on any given day.

[Butcher]

<!--quoteo(post=42038:date=Jun 4 2009, 11:47 AM:name=vitaminB)-->QUOTE (vitaminB @ Jun 4 2009, 11:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Speaking of Clutch, what ever happened to that band? They were pretty fucking good.

Clutch is best described by looking at Robert Horry. That man was a mediocre at best NBA player, but damn if he didn't shoot 100% from the three point line when it mattered the most. That's a guy who plays better than he really is when it matters the most. Now I'm sure that at least some of that clutchness is attributed to being able to overcome nerves and fears when the game is on the line, but there is some other intangible quality that makes someone clutch.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This article from 2005 will explain it better than me:

In Tuesday's Game 3 of the NBA Finals, San Antonio and Detroit are tied with about a minute left in the third quarter. The Spurs' Robert Horry launches a high-arching three-pointer from the top of the key. Nothing but glass. Forty-five seconds later, Horry drives in for a layup—rejected. When the Pistons run out on a fast break, Horry tries to block Richard Hamilton's shot from behind—goaltending.

<b>In less than a minute, Horry's burst of bad play has helped the Pistons lock up a victory. But don't tell that to the announcers. "That's a guy," says ABC's Hubie Brown, "who is not giving up on anything."</b>

<b>This year's playoffs have followed an all-too-familiar script. Robert Horry throws up a bunch of bricks. Robert Horry gets celebrated as "Big Shot Bob," legendary sharpshooter and five-time NBA champion. In both 2003 and 2004, Horry's missed three-pointers helped eliminate his teams from the playoffs. Yet during this year's finals, there's a commercial showing then-Laker Robert Horry hitting a three from the corner against the 76ers back in 2001. "The Finals," says a voice-over, "where legends are born." In Horry's case, it's more like, "The Finals, where legends are nurtured, coddled, and defended against reality."</b>

Robert Horry's career has been built on a great, underappreciated basketball truth: <b>Big shots are only big shots if you make them. Unlike a missed field goal or a botched ground ball, a missed three-pointer is imminently forgettable. Even the best long-range shooters miss most of the time. Every NBA game has dozens and dozens of misfires, all of which look more or less the same. One more miss, no matter how important the context, tends to get lost in the clutter. If you're a role player, that goes double—nobody expected you to make the shot anyway.</b>

Horry's true genius isn't his clutch shooting. It's his understanding of roundball amnesia. After sinking a buzzer-beater against Sacramento in the 2002 playoffs, Horry explained his philosophy. "If I hit it we win, if I miss y'all are going to blame the stars for losing the game anyway," he told the Washington Post's Michael Wilbon. "There's no pressure on me." Horry has none of the guts and gets all of the glory. <b>In the 2003 playoffs, Horry went 2-for-38 from behind the arc—and everybody blamed Shaq and Kobe for the Lakers' downfall. After this year's Game 3 drubbing, Horry got off again—it was Manu Ginobili's and Tim Duncan's fault. </b>


It's a myth.

[Scarey]

<!--quoteo(post=42026:date=Jun 4 2009, 11:19 AM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Jun 4 2009, 11:19 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Butch has made most of my points for me. To simplify, let's say you could assign a number between 1-100 to a person's ability (i know you can't). Let say Soriano is a 75. I think most people would define "clutch" as a 75 suddenly becoming a 90 when the game is on the line. I don't believe that is possible. BZ, you seem to be claiming that a 75's ability to not become a 50 when the game is on the line, is the definition of clutch. While I think a player folding is definitely possible, I don't believe that is the definition of a clutch player, as it is commonly used.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I've actually always thought of clutch as being able to maintain your performance under pressure.

[Fella]

Didn't you guys grow up watching Michael Jordan? did he ever miss a big shot? I mean yeah his regular season and playoff numbers overall were similar but in those really big situations when you had to have a big play or a big shot, he made it EVERY time. There has to be something to that.

I think your ignoring the human element. If people in tough situations can rise up and use adrenaline to do things they normally couldn't do, why can't athletes in big pressure packed situations full of adrenaline perform better than they normally would?

I think those situations cause some people to crumble, in others it inspires them to play amazing. Jim Leyritz seems like a good example to me, I think in 27 playoff games he hit something like .150 in innings 1 through 7 and then hit like 6 walk-off or go ahead HRs in 27 games from the 8th inning on, that's just ridiculous.

I don't believe there is some magical fairy dust that makes certain players perform like Gods in certain situations, but I do think there are guys who just have that confidence and drive to use adrenaline to make them a better player when its a really big situation.

[rok]

<!--quoteo(post=42038:date=Jun 4 2009, 11:47 AM:name=vitaminB)-->QUOTE (vitaminB @ Jun 4 2009, 11:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Speaking of Clutch, what ever happened to that band? They were pretty fucking good.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I love Clutch and they're still cranking out music. Check out their Beale Street album from last year. It's solid.



And what Fella said.

[leonardsipes]

Clutch has to exist, regardless of people being able to agree on a definition or statisticians being able to measure it. It seems almost ridiculous to believe everybody has the exact same ability to handle clutch situations.

[veryzer]

<!--quoteo(post=42051:date=Jun 4 2009, 12:15 PM:name=Fella)-->QUOTE (Fella @ Jun 4 2009, 12:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Didn't you guys grow up watching Michael Jordan? did he ever miss a big shot? I mean yeah his regular season and playoff numbers overall were similar but in those really big situations when you had to have a big play or a big shot, he made it EVERY time. There has to be something to that.

I think your ignoring the human element. If people in tough situations can rise up and use adrenaline to do things they normally couldn't do, why can't athletes in big pressure packed situations full of adrenaline perform better than they normally would?

I think those situations cause some people to crumble, in others it inspires them to play amazing. Jim Leyritz seems like a good example to me, I think in 27 playoff games he hit something like .150 in innings 1 through 7 and then hit like 6 walk-off or go ahead HRs in 27 games from the 8th inning on, that's just ridiculous.

I don't believe there is some magical fairy dust that makes certain players perform like Gods in certain situations, but I do think there are guys who just have that confidence and drive to use adrenaline to make them a better player when its a really big situation.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


it's a fact that jordan missed more potential game winning shots than he made. look it up.

[Fella]

<!--quoteo(post=42076:date=Jun 4 2009, 12:07 PM:name=veryzer)-->QUOTE (veryzer @ Jun 4 2009, 12:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=42051:date=Jun 4 2009, 12:15 PM:name=Fella)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Fella @ Jun 4 2009, 12:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Didn't you guys grow up watching Michael Jordan? did he ever miss a big shot? I mean yeah his regular season and playoff numbers overall were similar but in those really big situations when you had to have a big play or a big shot, he made it EVERY time. There has to be something to that.

I think your ignoring the human element. If people in tough situations can rise up and use adrenaline to do things they normally couldn't do, why can't athletes in big pressure packed situations full of adrenaline perform better than they normally would?

I think those situations cause some people to crumble, in others it inspires them to play amazing. Jim Leyritz seems like a good example to me, I think in 27 playoff games he hit something like .150 in innings 1 through 7 and then hit like 6 walk-off or go ahead HRs in 27 games from the 8th inning on, that's just ridiculous.

I don't believe there is some magical fairy dust that makes certain players perform like Gods in certain situations, but I do think there are guys who just have that confidence and drive to use adrenaline to make them a better player when its a really big situation.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


it's a fact that jordan missed more potential game winning shots than he made. look it up.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

That's true he was officially 25 for 51, in potential game winning situations but that's only if you include crazy shots like half courters and 40 foot jumpers. He also made almost 1/3rd of those shots in playoff games. Despite playing almost 10 times as many regular season games as playoff games in his career. In a big playoff situation when he had a chance to set his feet, he wasn't missing, ever.

[Butcher]

<!--quoteo(post=42080:date=Jun 4 2009, 01:20 PM:name=Fella)-->QUOTE (Fella @ Jun 4 2009, 01:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=42076:date=Jun 4 2009, 12:07 PM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Jun 4 2009, 12:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=42051:date=Jun 4 2009, 12:15 PM:name=Fella)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Fella @ Jun 4 2009, 12:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Didn't you guys grow up watching Michael Jordan? did he ever miss a big shot? I mean yeah his regular season and playoff numbers overall were similar but in those really big situations when you had to have a big play or a big shot, he made it EVERY time. There has to be something to that.

I think your ignoring the human element. If people in tough situations can rise up and use adrenaline to do things they normally couldn't do, why can't athletes in big pressure packed situations full of adrenaline perform better than they normally would?

I think those situations cause some people to crumble, in others it inspires them to play amazing. Jim Leyritz seems like a good example to me, I think in 27 playoff games he hit something like .150 in innings 1 through 7 and then hit like 6 walk-off or go ahead HRs in 27 games from the 8th inning on, that's just ridiculous.

I don't believe there is some magical fairy dust that makes certain players perform like Gods in certain situations, but I do think there are guys who just have that confidence and drive to use adrenaline to make them a better player when its a really big situation.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


it's a fact that jordan missed more potential game winning shots than he made. look it up.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

That's true he was officially 25 for 51, in potential game winning situations but that's only if you include crazy shots like half courters and 40 foot jumpers. He also made almost 1/3rd of those shots in playoff games. Despite playing almost 10 times as many regular season games as playoff games in his career. In a big playoff situation when he had a chance to set his feet, he wasn't missing, ever.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It just feels that way, because people tend to forget about the misses. The missed shot at the buzzer fades from memory. The shot against Russell when he held it for a second after nothing but net stays in your memory forever. That's human nature.

I was the biggest Jordan fan in the world, but he didn't play better in the playoffs. He played almost exactly the same. I mean -- he was amazing in the playoffs, but that's because he was always amazing.

Jordan's regular season FG% -- .497 3P% -- .327

Jordan's playoff FG% -- .487 3P% -- .332

Virtually identical.

The fact is that you want him taking the last shot -- not because of some mythical god-like quality the he possessed to always hit the last shot -- but because he was the best player on the floor and the odds of him hitting that shot is better than most. Because he is always better than most.

[Clapp]

Wow, if you guys really don't believe clutch exists in basketball at least, I don't know what to tell you. When Kobe is shooting 2 free throws at the end of the game, you know he's going to make them. The bottom line is many guys choke under the pressure(like our entire team the last 2 years), and the special ones do at least as well as they would usually. To me that's clutch, not letting the pressure get to you and handling the situation like it's nothing. Still, there are guys that go above and beyond that and step their game up.

[Butcher]

Kobe's regular season stats (career): FG% -- .455, 3P% -- .341, FT% -- .840

Kobe's playoff stats (career): FG% -- .448, 3P% -- .328, FT% -- .810

His playoff stats aren't too far off his regular season stats. However, his shooting percentage actually gets slightly worse on the big stage, across the board, in the playoffs.

So...there's that.

[ColoradoCub]

<!--quoteo(post=42201:date=Jun 4 2009, 10:08 PM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Jun 4 2009, 10:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Kobe's regular season stats (career): FG% -- .455, 3P% -- .341, FT% -- .840

Kobe's playoff stats (career): FG% -- .448, 3P% -- .328, FT% -- .810

His playoff stats aren't too far off his regular season stats. However, his shooting percentage actually gets slightly worse on the big stage, across the board, in the playoffs.

So...there's that.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
[img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/scarey.gif[/img]

[Clapp]

<!--quoteo(post=42202:date=Jun 4 2009, 10:19 PM:name=ColoradoCub)-->QUOTE (ColoradoCub @ Jun 4 2009, 10:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=42201:date=Jun 4 2009, 10:08 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Jun 4 2009, 10:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Kobe's regular season stats (career): FG% -- .455, 3P% -- .341, FT% -- .840

Kobe's playoff stats (career): FG% -- .448, 3P% -- .328, FT% -- .810

His playoff stats aren't too far off his regular season stats. However, his shooting percentage actually gets slightly worse on the big stage, across the board, in the playoffs.

So...there's that.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
[img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/scarey.gif[/img]
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How did he look tonight? He's a different player now than he was earlier in his career, where most of those stats come from. He's especially on another level mentally than he was just a few years ago. I said if there's a free throw with the game on the line, he's going to make it. I'd rather have him or MJ shooting that than even Steve Nash at the line in those situations.

<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->Kobe Bryant has waited a year, a long year, for another chance at NBA title. He's not about to let this one slip away.

The Olympic gold medal was nice. Not nearly enough.

He covets another golden trophy.

"I just want it so bad, that's all," Bryant said. "I just want it really bad."

Bryant, playing like a man possessed, scored 40 points and the Los Angeles Lakers, who have waited nearly one year for a chance to erase bitter memories of a Boston beatdown and a championship they felt belonged to them, pounded the Orlando Magic 100-75 in Game 1 on Thursday night.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Add in that the defense played in the regular season and playoffs are not even comparable in the NBA. You really think he could score 81 points in a playoff game? The teams focus their entire gameplan for 2 weeks on slowing Kobe down. And as I said, it's not about necessarily playing better, but not playing worse, not letting the pressure bother you. It clearly was a problem the last 2 years for us.

[Destined]

He's playing against the best teams. I mean come on, Kobe can't rape all the teams in playoffs, because they actually have talent and the best defenders. You guys expect Adrian Petersen to average more yards in the playoffs than in the regular season? Nope. Clutchness in hockey is way more common. i.e Malkin & Crosby.