Is Energy/Chemistry Worth a Damn?

[PcB]

<!--quoteo(post=41400:date=Jun 1 2009, 10:16 AM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Jun 1 2009, 10:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I think chemistry is bullshit. I think if you win, your team has chemistry. I think if you lose, it doesn't. The '05 White Sox are a good example. AJP might have been jumping around like a monkey on crack in September, but they still went 2-8 for a 10 game stretch, before sweeping the Indians to sew up the division. The Sox won because of career years from almost every pitcher, and superb defense, not because AJP knew how to crack a joke.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I couldn't agree more. This is just like the magical fighting in hockey giving a team the "fire, passion, and desire" to win the game argument.

[PcB]

<!--quoteo(post=41401:date=Jun 1 2009, 10:18 AM:name=BackyardLegend)-->QUOTE (BackyardLegend @ Jun 1 2009, 10:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=41396:date=Jun 1 2009, 10:07 AM:name=cherp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cherp @ Jun 1 2009, 10:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->When is Aramis expected back? He really makes a difference in this lineup. He is the guy who has that Sosa-like quality of being able to singlehandedly carry the team. Lee did - for one season - but that's what this team nees... a healthy Aramis.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

No way is Aramis on par with Sosa. Ramirez can put up some decent numbers, but I wouldn't consider him a leader of the pack. Even more, Ramirez is normally the kind of player that feeds off the rest of his teammates. He's not the kind of player that turns lead to gold.
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This is true. Although if you give ARam a few years to pack in as many steroids into his body as possible then I think he might be right on par with Sosa.

[BackyardLegend]

Good responses so far.

Still with all that said, I am not convinced that dropping Ramirez into this lethargic lineup is going to solve all the problems. I understand that with Aramis, Alfonso, Milton, Derrek and the rest of them, we have a bunch of proven major leaguers. But on the other hand, I look at this lineup and I see a total inability to score runs when it matters most.

Sure Ramirez has come up with some big hits in the past, and he had a decent run in the '03 Playoffs. However I look back at that year and point to Kenny Lofton as the reason we succeeded. There are no players on this team like him.

I know I jumped gears there a little.

[veryzer]

<!--quoteo(post=41416:date=Jun 1 2009, 11:17 AM:name=cherp)-->QUOTE (cherp @ Jun 1 2009, 11:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=41401:date=Jun 1 2009, 10:18 AM:name=BackyardLegend)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BackyardLegend @ Jun 1 2009, 10:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=41396:date=Jun 1 2009, 10:07 AM:name=cherp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cherp @ Jun 1 2009, 10:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->When is Aramis expected back? He really makes a difference in this lineup. He is the guy who has that Sosa-like quality of being able to singlehandedly carry the team. Lee did - for one season - but that's what this team nees... a healthy Aramis.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

No way is Aramis on par with Sosa. Ramirez can put up some decent numbers, but I wouldn't consider him a leader of the pack. Even more, Ramirez is normally the kind of player that feeds off the rest of his teammates. He's not the kind of player that turns lead to gold.
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I wasn't saying he was "on par" with Sammy. I said he has that Sosa-like quality of being able to singlehandedly carry a team. There is nobody else on this team with that sort of impact bat.

JH hoped that Milton would be it. He isn't. Dlee isn't anymore. Soto isn't close.

I really think this team NEEDS Aramis in order to be able to dominate.
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actually, if there's one player on this team that can carry the load, it's soriano.

[leonardsipes]

I do believe in intangibles, chemistry, fire or what ever you want to call it. The thing is, people only say teams have it if they win. I think the Cubs are under performing, because they have had too many players slumping or injured to get on a roll. They are not playing anywhere near peak, and yet have gotten decent results. They have had some bad losses like Thursday, but also great wins like Friday and the Theriot grand slam game.

[BT]

Here is my definitive reason why chemistry is bullshit. Take the Red Sox. In one series, they are swept in the playoffs, yet again, by the Yankees. They clearly have no chemistry as they could not manage to even win one game. Contrast them to the other Red Sox team, the one that wins the ALCS in game 7 against the Yankees, then goes on to sweep the Cardinals to finally win a World Series for Boston. This is a team with chemistry shooting out it's pooper. Everyone loves everyone else, the team is full of goof offs. The fans love everyone on the team.

So the question is, what is the difference between the first Red Sox team and the second Red Sox team?

Nothing. Zero. They are both the same team. The first team is what would have happened had Jorge Posada's throw to Derek Jeter been 1/20th of a second faster to get a sliding Dave Roberts in the 9th inning of game 4. Same guys, same makeup, but had Roberts been out by a sliver, instead of safe by a sliver, the Red Sox are going home, swept, dejected, and looking themselves in the mirror. Instead, they are the toast of Boston. And peoples read on their "chemistry" would have been entirely subject to the outcome of that one play.

[Scarey]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Theriot and Johnson the high energy types similar to Pierzinski and Byrnes that you're referring to?

[Butcher]

<!--quoteo(post=41434:date=Jun 1 2009, 01:43 PM:name=Scarey)-->QUOTE (Scarey @ Jun 1 2009, 01:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Theriot and Johnson the high energy types similar to Pierzinski and Byrnes that you're referring to?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think Theriot is really all that fiery. Johnson is. Bradley is, too. So is Zambrano. We do have those types on our roster. And if we were in first place, they'd be who people would be pointing to as our leaders. But because we're barely above .500, we're rudderless and lacking chemistry.

[vitaminB]

<!--quoteo(post=41416:date=Jun 1 2009, 12:17 PM:name=cherp)-->QUOTE (cherp @ Jun 1 2009, 12:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=41401:date=Jun 1 2009, 10:18 AM:name=BackyardLegend)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BackyardLegend @ Jun 1 2009, 10:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=41396:date=Jun 1 2009, 10:07 AM:name=cherp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cherp @ Jun 1 2009, 10:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->When is Aramis expected back? He really makes a difference in this lineup. He is the guy who has that Sosa-like quality of being able to singlehandedly carry the team. Lee did - for one season - but that's what this team nees... a healthy Aramis.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

No way is Aramis on par with Sosa. Ramirez can put up some decent numbers, but I wouldn't consider him a leader of the pack. Even more, Ramirez is normally the kind of player that feeds off the rest of his teammates. He's not the kind of player that turns lead to gold.
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I wasn't saying he was "on par" with Sammy. I said he has that Sosa-like quality of being able to singlehandedly carry a team. There is nobody else on this team with that sort of impact bat.

JH hoped that Milton would be it. He isn't. Dlee isn't anymore. Soto isn't close.

I really think this team NEEDS Aramis in order to be able to dominate.
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I think its just as simple as Aramis coming back healthy and ready to play. The benefits that this lineup will experience with ARam over Font is huge. Remember, when we were healthy, we were in 1st place for a bit this year, even with everyone hitting poorly.

[Scarey]

I have to say, I'm not a huge believer in chemistry. I do think certain individuals can effect a team in a negative way, but I don't think the influence is so drastic in a positive way.

However, I think showing some excitement in a game can be a huge bonus. Maybe the players aren't effected so much for a guy jumping and cheering after sliding into second, but the crowd is definitely influenced. Then the crowd gets into it and I think a batter at the plate can gain some confidence (not to mention the opposing pitcher wilting a bit).

[BackyardLegend]

I have to disagree. First of all, the players were different from 03 to 04. Big difference between Pokey Reese and Nomar.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/BOS/2003.shtml
http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/BOS/2004.shtml

Secondly, the 2004 Red Sox were not your typical team. Down 3-0 in the ALCS--they could have rolled over right there. But they didn't. They played one of the most incredible stretches in baseball history.

Even so, we don't have players that are like those Red Sox squads. Damon, Varitek, Millar, Youkilis, Manny, Ortiz--our players are not like those guys.

Do you honestly feel that Derrek Lee, Ramirez, Soriano and Zambrano can get together after a 3-0 series deficit, hit a shot of whiskey before game 4, and play to leave it all on the field?

[BackyardLegend]

<!--quoteo(post=41434:date=Jun 1 2009, 01:43 PM:name=Scarey)-->QUOTE (Scarey @ Jun 1 2009, 01:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Theriot and Johnson the high energy types similar to Pierzinski and Byrnes that you're referring to?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Hi energy - yes. Leaders - no.

[BT]

<!--quoteo(post=41439:date=Jun 1 2009, 01:53 PM:name=BackyardLegend)-->QUOTE (BackyardLegend @ Jun 1 2009, 01:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I have to disagree. First of all, the players were different from 03 to 04. Big difference between Pokey Reese and Nomar.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/BOS/2003.shtml
http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/BOS/2004.shtml

Secondly, the 2004 Red Sox were not your typical team. Down 3-0 in the ALCS--they could have rolled over right there. But they didn't. They played one of the most incredible stretches in baseball history.

Even so, we don't have players that are like those Red Sox squads. Damon, Varitek, Millar, Youkilis, Manny, Ortiz--our players are not like those guys.

Do you honestly feel that Derrek Lee, Ramirez, Soriano and Zambrano can get together after a 3-0 series deficit, hit a shot of whiskey before game 4, and play to leave it all on the field?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

You missed my point entirely. I am saying if Roberts was out, the 2004 red Sox have no chemistry. Since he was safe, they were a close knit team who won 8 in a row.

[vitaminB]

<!--quoteo(post=41439:date=Jun 1 2009, 02:53 PM:name=BackyardLegend)-->QUOTE (BackyardLegend @ Jun 1 2009, 02:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I have to disagree. First of all, the players were different from 03 to 04. Big difference between Pokey Reese and Nomar.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/BOS/2003.shtml
http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/BOS/2004.shtml

Secondly, the 2004 Red Sox were not your typical team. Down 3-0 in the ALCS--they could have rolled over right there. But they didn't. They played one of the most incredible stretches in baseball history.

Even so, we don't have players that are like those Red Sox squads. Damon, Varitek, Millar, Youkilis, Manny, Ortiz--our players are not like those guys.

Do you honestly feel that Derrek Lee, Ramirez, Soriano and Zambrano can get together after a 3-0 series deficit, hit a shot of whiskey before game 4, and play to leave it all on the field?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

The chances of ANYONE ever coming back from 3-0 again are a trillion to one, so that's sort of irrelevant. But, I just don't see energy and chemistry being a big deal in baseball, really. I think team work is important, sacrificing at bats to move a runner, that sort of thing, but it's not a sport where hustle and effort are going to take you to the top. You still need individuals to get out of their own heads and hit a baseball. You can't energize your way to that or try harder to make that happen.

[BackyardLegend]

<!--quoteo(post=41441:date=Jun 1 2009, 01:57 PM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Jun 1 2009, 01:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->You missed my point entirely. I am saying if Roberts was out, the 2004 red Sox have no chemistry. Since he was safe, they were a close knit team who won 8 in a row.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Sorry if you feel I skipped over your point. I caught your drift.

Roberts could have been out and the Red Sox could have still won that game.

Think of this though. After the 5th inning of Game 1 against the Dodgers last year, we were done for the series. We didn't even try afterwards.

Boston got their asses totally kicked (cue Jim Mora) in game 3, and were down early in game 4. But they still fought and put themselves in a position to win the game.

I look up and down this squad and even if we win 100 games this year, I don't see the type of players that can buck up in the playoffs and play with heart.