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<!--quoteo(post=52754:date=Jul 28 2009, 01:14 PM:name=bz)-->QUOTE (bz @ Jul 28 2009, 01:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=52751:date=Jul 28 2009, 01:11 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Jul 28 2009, 01:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=52749:date=Jul 28 2009, 01:06 PM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Jul 28 2009, 01:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=52745:date=Jul 28 2009, 01:00 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Jul 28 2009, 01:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=52742:date=Jul 28 2009, 12:57 PM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Jul 28 2009, 12:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=52714:date=Jul 28 2009, 11:59 AM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Jul 28 2009, 11:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=52713:date=Jul 28 2009, 11:51 AM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Jul 28 2009, 11:51 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Your job, as a manager, is to put your players in the best situation possible for a successful outcome to result. Lou did not even come close to doing that with Fontenot in the 9th last night. Having Blanco try to bunt, PHing with Fox, letting Fontenot swing away, sending Fontenot up there without a bat in his hand, etc., etc., etc. would have all been better choices than doing what he did. Sure, Fontenot should have been able to make contact on a bunt attempt, but he should have never been bunting in the first place since it was about the 15th best option at that point.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Boom.
ruby gets it, big time. In fact, ruby has been on fire for about two weeks straight.
<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->sending Fontenot up there without a bat in his hand<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
[img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif[/img]
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bam! ruby doesn't get it just because you say he gets it.
it's entirely possible that neither of you get it. a suicide squeeze with the infield back in double play posisition is not a bad move, especially when the pitch is right down the middle. all he had to do was make contact. period. he could have conceivably popped the ball up and still had a successful squeeze due to the fact the infield was back and not expecting it.
was batting fox a good move? yes. was letting fontenot swing a good move? yes. was bunting blanco a good move? maybe, maybe not. was trying a suicide with fontenot a good move? yes. too bad font fucked it up.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When you have other, better options at your disposal and you choose the least likely "good" option to succeed, that makes it a bad decision. Regardless of the outcome.
And ruby doesn't get it because I say he does. He gets it because he's right.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
no, you think ruby gets it because you think he's right. i don't think he's right, therefore bz gets it.
fastball down the middle. make contact, win the game, nobody argues. fontenot fucked up. it was his fault, not lou's.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For the billionth time, the outcome of the play or what pitch Fontenot ultimately saw in that situation has no bearing on whether or not it was a wise move.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you've moved completely away from defending Fontenot's ability to bunt when it suits your argument best. Nice.
We wouldn't be talking about this right now if Fontenot executed. End of story.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No. My argument hasn't changed. You're just being a dick now.
If he executed, we wouldn't be talking about this right now -- this is true. But it still would have been the wrong move.
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last night we were talking about it being dumb that font pinch hit instead of fox <b>before</b> the squeeze was attempted.
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<!--quoteo(post=52755:date=Jul 28 2009, 01:16 PM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Jul 28 2009, 01:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=52754:date=Jul 28 2009, 01:14 PM:name=bz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bz @ Jul 28 2009, 01:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=52751:date=Jul 28 2009, 01:11 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Jul 28 2009, 01:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=52749:date=Jul 28 2009, 01:06 PM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Jul 28 2009, 01:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=52745:date=Jul 28 2009, 01:00 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Jul 28 2009, 01:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=52742:date=Jul 28 2009, 12:57 PM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Jul 28 2009, 12:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=52714:date=Jul 28 2009, 11:59 AM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Jul 28 2009, 11:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=52713:date=Jul 28 2009, 11:51 AM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Jul 28 2009, 11:51 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Your job, as a manager, is to put your players in the best situation possible for a successful outcome to result. Lou did not even come close to doing that with Fontenot in the 9th last night. Having Blanco try to bunt, PHing with Fox, letting Fontenot swing away, sending Fontenot up there without a bat in his hand, etc., etc., etc. would have all been better choices than doing what he did. Sure, Fontenot should have been able to make contact on a bunt attempt, but he should have never been bunting in the first place since it was about the 15th best option at that point.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Boom.
ruby gets it, big time. In fact, ruby has been on fire for about two weeks straight.
<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->sending Fontenot up there without a bat in his hand<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
[img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif[/img]
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bam! ruby doesn't get it just because you say he gets it.
it's entirely possible that neither of you get it. a suicide squeeze with the infield back in double play posisition is not a bad move, especially when the pitch is right down the middle. all he had to do was make contact. period. he could have conceivably popped the ball up and still had a successful squeeze due to the fact the infield was back and not expecting it.
was batting fox a good move? yes. was letting fontenot swing a good move? yes. was bunting blanco a good move? maybe, maybe not. was trying a suicide with fontenot a good move? yes. too bad font fucked it up.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When you have other, better options at your disposal and you choose the least likely "good" option to succeed, that makes it a bad decision. Regardless of the outcome.
And ruby doesn't get it because I say he does. He gets it because he's right.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
no, you think ruby gets it because you think he's right. i don't think he's right, therefore bz gets it.
fastball down the middle. make contact, win the game, nobody argues. fontenot fucked up. it was his fault, not lou's.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For the billionth time, the outcome of the play or what pitch Fontenot ultimately saw in that situation has no bearing on whether or not it was a wise move.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you've moved completely away from defending Fontenot's ability to bunt when it suits your argument best. Nice.
We wouldn't be talking about this right now if Fontenot executed. End of story.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No. My argument hasn't changed. You're just being a dick now.
If he executed, we wouldn't be talking about this right now -- this is true. But it still would have been the wrong move.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So if Fontenot executes and we win the game, it is still the wrong move...despite the fact that we won the game.
If Angelo had picked McClellin, I would have been expecting to hear by training camp that kid has stage 4 cancer, is actually 5'2" 142 lbs, is a chick who played in a 7 - 0 defensive scheme who only rotated in on downs which were 3 and 34 yds + so is not expecting to play a down in the NFL until the sex change is complete and she puts on another 100 lbs. + but this is Emery's first pick so he'll get a pass with a bit of questioning. - 1060Ivy
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<!--quoteo(post=52757:date=Jul 28 2009, 01:19 PM:name=bz)-->QUOTE (bz @ Jul 28 2009, 01:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=52755:date=Jul 28 2009, 01:16 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Jul 28 2009, 01:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=52754:date=Jul 28 2009, 01:14 PM:name=bz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bz @ Jul 28 2009, 01:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=52751:date=Jul 28 2009, 01:11 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Jul 28 2009, 01:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=52749:date=Jul 28 2009, 01:06 PM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Jul 28 2009, 01:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=52745:date=Jul 28 2009, 01:00 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Jul 28 2009, 01:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=52742:date=Jul 28 2009, 12:57 PM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Jul 28 2009, 12:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=52714:date=Jul 28 2009, 11:59 AM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Jul 28 2009, 11:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=52713:date=Jul 28 2009, 11:51 AM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Jul 28 2009, 11:51 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Your job, as a manager, is to put your players in the best situation possible for a successful outcome to result. Lou did not even come close to doing that with Fontenot in the 9th last night. Having Blanco try to bunt, PHing with Fox, letting Fontenot swing away, sending Fontenot up there without a bat in his hand, etc., etc., etc. would have all been better choices than doing what he did. Sure, Fontenot should have been able to make contact on a bunt attempt, but he should have never been bunting in the first place since it was about the 15th best option at that point.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Boom.
ruby gets it, big time. In fact, ruby has been on fire for about two weeks straight.
<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->sending Fontenot up there without a bat in his hand<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
[img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif[/img]
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bam! ruby doesn't get it just because you say he gets it.
it's entirely possible that neither of you get it. a suicide squeeze with the infield back in double play posisition is not a bad move, especially when the pitch is right down the middle. all he had to do was make contact. period. he could have conceivably popped the ball up and still had a successful squeeze due to the fact the infield was back and not expecting it.
was batting fox a good move? yes. was letting fontenot swing a good move? yes. was bunting blanco a good move? maybe, maybe not. was trying a suicide with fontenot a good move? yes. too bad font fucked it up.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When you have other, better options at your disposal and you choose the least likely "good" option to succeed, that makes it a bad decision. Regardless of the outcome.
And ruby doesn't get it because I say he does. He gets it because he's right.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
no, you think ruby gets it because you think he's right. i don't think he's right, therefore bz gets it.
fastball down the middle. make contact, win the game, nobody argues. fontenot fucked up. it was his fault, not lou's.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For the billionth time, the outcome of the play or what pitch Fontenot ultimately saw in that situation has no bearing on whether or not it was a wise move.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you've moved completely away from defending Fontenot's ability to bunt when it suits your argument best. Nice.
We wouldn't be talking about this right now if Fontenot executed. End of story.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No. My argument hasn't changed. You're just being a dick now.
If he executed, we wouldn't be talking about this right now -- this is true. But it still would have been the wrong move.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So if Fontenot executes and we win the game, it is still the wrong move...despite the fact that we won the game.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is correct.
If Lou pulled veryzer out of the stands and asked him to bunt in that spot and Valverde drills him in the ass and we win the game, does that make it a smart move?
Sometimes the wrong move works out well. You make the call that has the highest probability of succeeding. Lou's first mistake was not using Fox there. His second mistake was asking Fontenot to bunt.
Even if it worked, it wasn't the smartest option available to him.
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I'm willing to bet that if Fontenot lays down the bunt and we win you or Ruby would not be talking about how bad of a decision that was. You might be saying things like "that was ballsy" or "wow, I can't believe he pulled that off!" You wouldn't be saying "That was a totally awful decision, it's a good thing Fontenot executed!"
You know why? Because you're hyperanalyzing this. You could break down every decision by every manager hours after the game is over and determine better options. It's real easy to sit back, watch the game, then think about the shit for a couple hours, then come up with the decision he should have made or whatever.
Personally, I think it was a good move (along with the others available) because (like Tom said) the defense was playing back.
If Angelo had picked McClellin, I would have been expecting to hear by training camp that kid has stage 4 cancer, is actually 5'2" 142 lbs, is a chick who played in a 7 - 0 defensive scheme who only rotated in on downs which were 3 and 34 yds + so is not expecting to play a down in the NFL until the sex change is complete and she puts on another 100 lbs. + but this is Emery's first pick so he'll get a pass with a bit of questioning. - 1060Ivy
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Let me reiterate my position. Lou made a high risk decision, and Fontenot blows goats. That's a bad combo.
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And ya know what? If Fox comes in he better get a hit. Or Blanco better get that bunt down. Or Fontenot better get that hit if he's asked to swing away. If the player doesn't execute the play called it is his fault...not the manager.
The only exception is if the player is setup for failure because the are downright incapable of performing the task--asking Theriot to close the 9th inning or having Soto steal against Molina or having Zambrano pitch left handed, etc.
If Angelo had picked McClellin, I would have been expecting to hear by training camp that kid has stage 4 cancer, is actually 5'2" 142 lbs, is a chick who played in a 7 - 0 defensive scheme who only rotated in on downs which were 3 and 34 yds + so is not expecting to play a down in the NFL until the sex change is complete and she puts on another 100 lbs. + but this is Emery's first pick so he'll get a pass with a bit of questioning. - 1060Ivy
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If Fontenot had just been executed, we wouldn't be having this argument.
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<!--quoteo(post=52762:date=Jul 28 2009, 02:33 PM:name=bz)-->QUOTE (bz @ Jul 28 2009, 02:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->And ya know what? If Fox comes in he better get a hit.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fox didn't need a hit. That's the point. He just needed to hit a fly ball, take a walk, allow a wild pitch, get hit by a pitch, hit a slow grounder up the middle, etc.
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<!--quoteo(post=52766:date=Jul 28 2009, 01:50 PM:name=Coldneck)-->QUOTE (Coldneck @ Jul 28 2009, 01:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=52762:date=Jul 28 2009, 02:33 PM:name=bz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bz @ Jul 28 2009, 02:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->And ya know what? If Fox comes in he better get a hit.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fox didn't need a hit. That's the point. He just needed to hit a fly ball, take a walk, allow a wild pitch, get hit by a pitch, hit a slow grounder up the middle, etc.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My point was he better execute, but yea you're right.
If Angelo had picked McClellin, I would have been expecting to hear by training camp that kid has stage 4 cancer, is actually 5'2" 142 lbs, is a chick who played in a 7 - 0 defensive scheme who only rotated in on downs which were 3 and 34 yds + so is not expecting to play a down in the NFL until the sex change is complete and she puts on another 100 lbs. + but this is Emery's first pick so he'll get a pass with a bit of questioning. - 1060Ivy
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FWIW. this is the first decision in recent memeory that I think Lou blantantly screwed up. Overall, he's been using the bullpen well, the bench well, pinch hitting correctly, working the matchups, and making overall good decisions. I haven't really had a problem with his managing, as of late. However, bunting last night was one of the riskiest plays possible, not to mention it was with one of the players least likely to be successful at attempting to execute it. All I want from Lou is for him to put players in situations where they are most likely to succeed. A suicide squeeze, in the bottom of the 9th, with the bases loaded, 1 out, and Mike Fontenot at the plate is NOT that.
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<!--quoteo(post=52761:date=Jul 28 2009, 01:31 PM:name=rok)-->QUOTE (rok @ Jul 28 2009, 01:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Let me reiterate my position. Lou made a high risk decision, and Fontenot blows goats. That's a bad combo.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
IMO it wasn't that high of a risk though. All he had to do was make contact. Even if squeeze bunting is truly as godalmighty difficult as Butch (and others) have been arguing, fouling off a bunt isn't. I'll grant you there was a risk that he could pop it up, but seriously, how risky is it to believe a major leaguer can simply make CONTACT with a pitch, by bunting at it? Even the crappiest pitcher trying to bunt usually strikes out by fouling off 3. It is truly rare that they miss it completely.
I wish that I believed in Fate. I wish I didn't sleep so late. I used to be carried in the arms of cheerleaders.
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<!--quoteo(post=52768:date=Jul 28 2009, 01:56 PM:name=ruby23)-->QUOTE (ruby23 @ Jul 28 2009, 01:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->FWIW. this is the first decision in recent memeory that I think Lou blantantly screwed up. Overall, he's been using the bullpen well, the bench well, pinch hitting correctly, working the matchups, and making overall good decisions. I haven't really had a problem with his managing, as of late. However, bunting last night was one of the riskiest plays possible, not to mention it was with one of the players least likely to be successful at attempting to execute it. All I want from Lou is for him to put players in situations where they are most likely to succeed. A suicide squeeze, in the bottom of the 9th, with the bases loaded, 1 out, and Mike Fontenot at the plate is NOT that.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yep, I haven't had any major problems with the way Lou has been managing since the AS break. Then again, our players are finally performing the way they should (except Fontenot), so that always helps.
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<!--quoteo(post=52769:date=Jul 28 2009, 01:57 PM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Jul 28 2009, 01:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=52761:date=Jul 28 2009, 01:31 PM:name=rok)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rok @ Jul 28 2009, 01:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Let me reiterate my position. Lou made a high risk decision, and Fontenot blows goats. That's a bad combo.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
IMO it wasn't that high of a risk though. All he had to do was make contact. Even if squeeze bunting is truly as godalmighty difficult as Butch (and others) have been arguing, fouling off a bunt isn't. I'll grant you there was a risk that he could pop it up, but seriously, how risky is it to believe a major leaguer can simply make CONTACT with a pitch, by bunting at it? Even the crappiest pitcher trying to bunt usually strikes out by fouling off 3. It is truly rare that they miss it completely.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He should have made contact, I don't think anyone is arguing that, at least I'm not. What happens with the contact and the likelihood that it's a favorable result, I think that's a totally different story.
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Wow, I didn't agree with Fontenot batting either, but once he was up there, calling for the squeeze certainly wasn't "retarded." Although I probably wouldn't have called for it in that situation, I thought it was gutsy and it completely caught the Asstrolls off guard. There were certainly other options, but the squeeze was a viable one in that situation.
I can't believe people are blaming Lou for Fontenot not being able to (at the very least) foul off a bunt. And Butcher's right, this is what we get for being in first place. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif[/img]
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