Pirates Trades (Grabow, Gorzelanny)

[Butcher]

<!--quoteo(post=54222:date=Jul 31 2009, 10:40 AM:name=ruby23)-->QUOTE (ruby23 @ Jul 31 2009, 10:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->You guys are full of fucking shit.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not at all, dude. I'd swear in court on this one.

[ruby23]

<!--quoteo(post=54229:date=Jul 31 2009, 10:47 AM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Jul 31 2009, 10:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=54222:date=Jul 31 2009, 10:40 AM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Jul 31 2009, 10:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->You guys are full of fucking shit.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not at all, dude. I'd swear in court on this one.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Perjury charges would be forthcoming.

[ruby23]

<!--quoteo(post=54228:date=Jul 31 2009, 10:46 AM:name=Coach)-->QUOTE (Coach @ Jul 31 2009, 10:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=54220:date=Jul 31 2009, 11:37 AM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Jul 31 2009, 11:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=54219:date=Jul 31 2009, 10:36 AM:name=Coach)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coach @ Jul 31 2009, 10:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=54217:date=Jul 31 2009, 11:31 AM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Jul 31 2009, 11:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->That wasn't known as the Ramirez trade when it happened, it was known as the Lofton trade.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not by me.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ditto. I was psyched about Lofton, but I had a feeling Ramirez was going to be the jewel of that trade.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Absolutely.
Lofton was a one year rental to replacement Patterson, but A-Ram was a promising young 3rd baseman.
I was worried about his defense though.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The shit is thick in here. It was the Lofton Trade by the entire fucking group of us. It was the first time the Cubs had a legitmate shot at going to the playoffs and advancing in forever, none of us were looking to the future, we were looking at winning right now. Patterson had been great and we needed a replacement pronto. Getting one of the best leadoff hitters in recent history is what the trade was about, Ramirez was an afterthought in my mind and yours too.

[Coach]

Dont project your lack of knowledge to everyone.

[ruby23]

<!--quoteo(post=54235:date=Jul 31 2009, 10:55 AM:name=Coach)-->QUOTE (Coach @ Jul 31 2009, 10:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Dont project your lack of knowledge to everyone.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't pretend you thought something you didn't.

[Coach]

<!--quoteo(post=54236:date=Jul 31 2009, 11:55 AM:name=ruby23)-->QUOTE (ruby23 @ Jul 31 2009, 11:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=54235:date=Jul 31 2009, 10:55 AM:name=Coach)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coach @ Jul 31 2009, 10:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Dont project your lack of knowledge to everyone.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't pretend you thought something you didn't.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let's get CFSteve to search the achieves to prove you wrong.

[rok]

I wanted to keep Lofton on for another season, and was excited to have him. Having him lead off radically changed our offense for that short time.

[ruby23]

<!--quoteo(post=54237:date=Jul 31 2009, 10:57 AM:name=Coach)-->QUOTE (Coach @ Jul 31 2009, 10:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=54236:date=Jul 31 2009, 11:55 AM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Jul 31 2009, 11:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=54235:date=Jul 31 2009, 10:55 AM:name=Coach)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coach @ Jul 31 2009, 10:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Dont project your lack of knowledge to everyone.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't pretend you thought something you didn't.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let's get CFSteve to search the achieves to prove you wrong.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why bother? I know I'm right and you know I'm right.

[The Dude]

<!--quoteo(post=54232:date=Jul 31 2009, 10:53 AM:name=ruby23)-->QUOTE (ruby23 @ Jul 31 2009, 10:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=54228:date=Jul 31 2009, 10:46 AM:name=Coach)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coach @ Jul 31 2009, 10:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=54220:date=Jul 31 2009, 11:37 AM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Jul 31 2009, 11:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=54219:date=Jul 31 2009, 10:36 AM:name=Coach)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coach @ Jul 31 2009, 10:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=54217:date=Jul 31 2009, 11:31 AM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Jul 31 2009, 11:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->That wasn't known as the Ramirez trade when it happened, it was known as the Lofton trade.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not by me.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ditto. I was psyched about Lofton, but I had a feeling Ramirez was going to be the jewel of that trade.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Absolutely.
Lofton was a one year rental to replacement Patterson, but A-Ram was a promising young 3rd baseman.
I was worried about his defense though.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The shit is thick in here. It was the Lofton Trade by the entire fucking group of us. It was the first time the Cubs had a legitmate shot at going to the playoffs and advancing in forever, none of us were looking to the future, we were looking at winning right now. Patterson had been great and we needed a replacement pronto. Getting one of the best leadoff hitters in recent history is what the trade was about, Ramirez was an afterthought in my mind and yours too.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I thought Lofton was old and washed up when we got him (and was wrong) and thought Ramirez was a good long term investment (and was right).

[Coach]

Here is the Pittsburgh's article on the trade:
<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec--><!--sizeo:4--><!--/sizeo-->Mired in another losing season, Bucs pass the bucks<!--sizec--><!--/sizec-->

Thursday, July 24, 2003

By Paul Meyer, Post-Gazette Sports Writer

About a month ago, top Pirates officials begrudgingly accepted what many of the team's fans had known much earlier -- that the team had no prayer of reaching the playoffs this season.

With the team also struggling financially -- $30 million in losses in three seasons at PNC Park -- it was time to cut the payroll.

<b>That was the motive for the trade on Tuesday that sent third baseman Aramis Ramirez, one of the team's most promising young players, to the Chicago Cubs. Ramirez's contract calls for him to make $6 million next season.</b>

But Ramirez wasn't the player the Pirates wanted to unload. They had hoped to rid themselves of another $6 million man, pitcher Kris Benson.

Had Benson not mentioned that he felt some "discomfort" in his right shoulder a few days ago and missed his turn to pitch Tuesday night, he -- not Ramirez -- would have been traded to help the Pirates ease a financial crunch that involves debt payments.

The Pirates must comply with a Major League Baseball requirement of a minimum 60-40 ratio between earnings and debt.

To do so, they wanted to trade Benson, who will receive $6 million next season in the final year of a four-year contract extension he signed a couple of days before coming up with a bad elbow in 2000.

But with Benson suddenly unmarketable because of his latest ailment, and baseball's July 31 trade deadline looming, the Pirates needed to find another high-priced player to move. That turned out to be Ramirez.

<b>As a result of the Ramirez trade and others consummated in the past week, the Pirates have rid themselves of as much as $12.5 million in salary expense for next season, which was their prime objective.</b>

"We've lost too much money," said team owner Kevin McClatchy. "You can only lose so much before this has to change."

"I'm not going to run this team into bankruptcy," he said. "We knew before the season that if we weren't competitive [in the division race] and attendance [lagged], we were going to have to do this."

Trades of other high-salaried players, like Brian Giles and Jason Kendall, or even Benson, may still happen in the next week, but the Pirates don't have to make more trades for financial reasons.

"We're fine," McClatchy said yesterday.

But General Manager Dave Littlefield might make another trade or two.

"Dave is listening to trade opportunities," McClatchy said. "It depends on what's out there and what we can get back. And you also need somebody to dance with in order to make a trade."

The Pirates' most coveted player is outfielder Giles, but another team won't get him without also taking Kendall, a catcher, and agreeing to pay at least some of the $42 million remaining on his contract. The Pirates have discussed such a trade with the San Diego Padres.

The Pirates thought they could complete a trade of Benson to the Chicago White Sox or the St. Louis Cardinals, but that was before he flummoxed the team with his "discomfort." He isn't scheduled to pitch again until Tuesday against San Diego, just two days before the trade deadline.

Benson, the first player chosen in the 1996 draft, missed a turn to start in mid-June so he could work on his pitching mechanics. After he returned, he had a nondescript start against Cleveland June 21, then pitched well in his next three starts.

With playoff contenders looking for pitching help, trade rumors about Benson warmed.

Last Thursday, against the last-place Milwaukee Brewers, Benson pitched only two innings and was hit hard. His final pitch in that 53-pitch effort was clocked at 97 mph -- the speed of a top-notch major-league fastball.

But after his comments about his shoulder, the trade rumors went cold.

<b>So Ramirez went to the Cubs, along with center fielder Kenny Lofton, for veteran infielder Jose Hernandez, who became the Pirates' third baseman last night, minor-league pitcher Matt Bruback and another player, to be named probably by Aug. 15.</b>

The Pirates-Cubs trade followed another deal Tuesday that sent left-handed pitchers Scott Sauerbeck and Mike Gonzalez to Boston for right-handers Brandon Lyon, who joined the Pirates as a relief pitcher, and Anastacio Martinez, who will pitch in the minors, probably at Class AA Altoona.

Two days earlier, the Pirates sent relief pitcher Mike Williams to Philadelphia for minor-league left-hander Frank Brooks.

The Pirates -- if not sooner then certainly later -- will continue to make trades that not only reduce their payroll but also bolster their minor-league system and make the major-league team younger.

There's also a possibility that the Pirates, in the off-season, will pursue more free agent players who don't command budget-busting contracts.

From the end of the 2002 season until midway through spring training this year, the Pirates added free agents Reggie Sanders, Matt Stairs, Jeff Suppan, Jeff D'Amico and Lofton, all veteran major leaguers, for about $6 million total.

"We're in a changing marketplace," McClatchy said. "We're going to have a good opportunity this winter to add players."

If the team continues to struggle, its hierarchy will at least have the cold comfort of knowing that losing has become a lot less expensive.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

[Butcher]

It's absolutely incredible how lopsided that trade was. Hendry should be arrested for that heist.

[dk123]

<!--quoteo(post=54244:date=Jul 31 2009, 11:07 AM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Jul 31 2009, 11:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->It's absolutely incredible how lopsided that trade was. Hendry should be arrested for that heist.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Go fuck yourself, butcher.

[Butcher]

<!--quoteo(post=54245:date=Jul 31 2009, 11:14 AM:name=dk123)-->QUOTE (dk123 @ Jul 31 2009, 11:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=54244:date=Jul 31 2009, 11:07 AM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Jul 31 2009, 11:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->It's absolutely incredible how lopsided that trade was. Hendry should be arrested for that heist.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Go fuck yourself, butcher.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
[img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif[/img]

BOBBY HILL!

[MW4]

<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->I'd much rather take a chance on a left-handed pitcher that just turned 27 and was one of the best starters in the league just 2 seasons ago.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Did we just get Rich Hill back?

[kbwsb]

<!--quoteo(post=54244:date=Jul 31 2009, 11:07 AM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Jul 31 2009, 11:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->It's absolutely incredible how lopsided that trade was. Hendry should be arrested for that heist.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True, but until Coach just posted that article from the Pittsburgh newspaper today, I wasn't aware that the Pirates HAD to trade Ramirez. Now it at least makes <i>some</i> sense.