What does Miles have on Lou and Jim?

[veryzer]

i didn't like the trade, but i understood it. had fontenot and bradley performed the way they were supposed to, the trade would have looked a whole lot better.

[Butcher]

<!--quoteo(post=56808:date=Aug 10 2009, 05:14 PM:name=veryzer)-->QUOTE (veryzer @ Aug 10 2009, 05:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->i didn't like the trade, but i understood it. had fontenot and bradley performed the way they were supposed to, the trade would have looked a whole lot better.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, Bradley was "supposed" to miss at least 60 games. And I'm not sure what Fontenot was "supposed" to do, since he had spent his entire (short) big league career as a part-time player.

[BT]

<!--quoteo(post=56799:date=Aug 10 2009, 04:18 PM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Aug 10 2009, 04:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=56797:date=Aug 10 2009, 04:05 PM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Aug 10 2009, 04:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Butch, PCB said Stevens had been good in the pen. You used a BS statistic to disprove that. Stevens HAS been effective, except his outing yesterday skewed his ERA. I showed you how I could also use a BS statistic to disprove one of your holy tenets. DeRosa has been more effective than a .222 average and a .276 OBP would indicate.

Although I will admit that you motherfuckers sure piss and moan a lot about losing a guy with a sub .800 OPS this year.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The point is, regardless of how well he has pitched, is that he's pitched 7 innings -- certainly not enough to determine how awesome he's going to be. And again, I don't see him making much of an impact on the 2009 Chicago Cubs. As an aside (but pretty relevant to my point), Stevens will be 26 next month. That's pretty fucking old for a prospect.

How about this, BT? Instead of arguing around the perimeter of this discussion, let me ask you two questions, because I'm curious.

Did you like the DeRosa trade when Hendry made it?

Do you like the DeRosa trade now?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


I'll answer them, but they are fairly pointless questions without context.

Did I like the trade when he made it? No. No one would like a competitive team trading a starter for 3 prospects. So the deal in a vacuum doesn't help us. But it doesn't matter if I liked it when he made it. A more pertinent question is:

Did I like the trade of DeRosa if it freed up money to sign Bradley? Yes, I did. And since we don't live in magic Butcher land, where we get to keep everyone AND sign Bradley, it think that is a more relevant question.

Do I like the trade now? No. Again, without context, it really doesn't mean much. I don't like the trade now because Fontenot has sucked worse than I thought possible, Ramirez has been hurt most of the year, and Bradley's OPS is .200 points lower than it has been the last 2 year, and the worst it has been since 2004. Those are 3 things (and that totally puts aside the struggles of Soriano and Soto)I didn't expect to happen, let alone all 3. If Bradley was slugging the way he has in virtually every other season of his career, I still wouldn't have a problem with the deal. So not liking the deal, because in retrospect it hasn't worked, doesn't really tell us anything.

[Butcher]

Magical Butcherland? You mean the crazy place where Mark DeRosa's salary was $5.5M dollars -- only $3M more than Aaron Miles's salary? That insane, wacky place where the Cubs, through some sort of wizardry, are able to absorb the extra $3M it would've cost to keep DeRosa and not sign Miles?

[Mikey]

What I thought of the trade at the time? Hendry selling high. I thought DeRosa had peaked.

[Butcher]

<!--quoteo(post=56900:date=Aug 10 2009, 08:52 PM:name=Mikey)-->QUOTE (Mikey @ Aug 10 2009, 08:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->What I thought of the trade at the time? Hendry selling high. I thought DeRosa had peaked.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He may very well have peaked in 2008. But to think he would fall off a cliff the following season doesn't make sense. And if he were selling high, it might make some sense to get useful players in return.

[Baron]

<!--quoteo(post=56899:date=Aug 10 2009, 08:48 PM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Aug 10 2009, 08:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Magical Butcherland? You mean the crazy place where Mark DeRosa's salary was $5.5M dollars -- only $3M more than Aaron Miles's salary? That insane, wacky place where the Cubs, through some sort of wizardry, are able to absorb the extra $3M it would've cost to keep DeRosa and not sign Miles?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

He's not talking about the money, he is talking about the playing time.

[BT]

<!--quoteo(post=56899:date=Aug 10 2009, 08:48 PM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Aug 10 2009, 08:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Magical Butcherland? You mean the crazy place where Mark DeRosa's salary was $5.5M dollars -- only $3M more than Aaron Miles's salary? That insane, wacky place where the Cubs, through some sort of wizardry, are able to absorb the extra $3M it would've cost to keep DeRosa and not sign Miles?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Yes Butch, that place. The place where the Cubs told Abreu's agent that they were going to sign Bradley AFTER they cleared salary. The place where the people actually responsible for the budget said we needed to clear money. The place where Hendry, not being a fucking retard, had to decide BETWEEN DeRosa and Bradley, and didn't turn down the chance to keep both. The place where the people who's actual money is being spent get to decide where to spend it, not fans on a message board. I know 3 million isn't a lot to you, but apparently the people who make the Cubs budget decided it was.

For magic butcher land to be a real place, either Abreu is lying, or the Cubs for no apparent reason, lied to him. In reality land, the Cubs didn't sign Bradley until after DeRosa and Marquis, along with their salaries, were traded, just like Abreu said.

[Mikey]

<!--quoteo(post=56902:date=Aug 10 2009, 08:54 PM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Aug 10 2009, 08:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=56900:date=Aug 10 2009, 08:52 PM:name=Mikey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mikey @ Aug 10 2009, 08:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->What I thought of the trade at the time? Hendry selling high. I thought DeRosa had peaked.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He may very well have peaked in 2008. But to think he would fall off a cliff the following season doesn't make sense. And if he were selling high, it might make some sense to get useful players in return.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
At the time, I thought they were going to be used to get Peavy.

[kbwsb]

Cub's payroll: $143 million
DeRo's salary over Miles: $3 million

Yeah, it was a fucking stupid decision.
And once and for all, please just admit that Miles was brought in to replace DeRo. He was signed the SAME DAY that DeRo was inexplicably traded. His role on the Cardinals the year before was <i>exactly</i> like DeRo's with the Cubs: super utility guy who can fill in at a plethora of positions.
Last year, DeRo played 65 games in the outfield for us, 22 at 3B, as well as 1B and SS, so don't tell me he was our fucking 2nd baseman.

[Kid]

<!--quoteo(post=56910:date=Aug 10 2009, 10:03 PM:name=KBwsb)-->QUOTE (KBwsb @ Aug 10 2009, 10:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Cub's payroll: $143 million
DeRo's salary over Miles: $3 million

Yeah, it was a fucking stupid decision.
And once and for all, please just admit that Miles was brought in to replace DeRo. He was signed the SAME DAY that DeRo was inexplicably traded. His role on the Cardinals the year before was <i>exactly</i> like DeRo's with the Cubs: super utility guy who can fill in at a plethora of positions.
Last year, DeRo played 65 games in the outfield for us, 22 at 3B, as well as 1B and SS, so don't tell me he was our fucking 2nd baseman.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fine. I admit it.

It's factually inaccurate.

But I admit it.

[Butcher]

<!--quoteo(post=56906:date=Aug 10 2009, 08:58 PM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Aug 10 2009, 08:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=56899:date=Aug 10 2009, 08:48 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Aug 10 2009, 08:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Magical Butcherland? You mean the crazy place where Mark DeRosa's salary was $5.5M dollars -- only $3M more than Aaron Miles's salary? That insane, wacky place where the Cubs, through some sort of wizardry, are able to absorb the extra $3M it would've cost to keep DeRosa and not sign Miles?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Yes Butch, that place. The place where the Cubs told Abreu's agent that they were going to sign Bradley AFTER they cleared salary. The place where the people actually responsible for the budget said we needed to clear money. The place where Hendry, not being a fucking retard, had to decide BETWEEN DeRosa and Bradley, and didn't turn down the chance to keep both. The place where the people who's actual money is being spent get to decide where to spend it, not fans on a message board. I know 3 million isn't a lot to you, but apparently the people who make the Cubs budget decided it was.

For magic butcher land to be a real place, either Abreu is lying, or the Cubs for no apparent reason, lied to him. In reality land, the Cubs didn't sign Bradley until after DeRosa and Marquis, along with their salaries, were traded, just like Abreu said.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When your total team payroll is over $130M and you're willing to drop $5M on a guy like Aaron Miles, then I'm sorry, but $3M isn't a lot. And if you thought about it for a second and stopped trying to counter every single point I make, you'd probably agree with me.

Forget about what Abreu's agent said for a second and just use a little common sense. We signed Bradley for $30 over 3 years. That extra $3M we saved by trading DeRosa was really, REALLY, the only thing between signing Bradley and not signing Bradley? C'mon, BT.

[Baron]

<!--quoteo(post=56910:date=Aug 10 2009, 09:03 PM:name=KBwsb)-->QUOTE (KBwsb @ Aug 10 2009, 09:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Cub's payroll: $143 million
DeRo's salary over Miles: $3 million

Yeah, it was a fucking stupid decision.
And once and for all, please just admit that Miles was brought in to replace DeRo. He was signed the SAME DAY that DeRo was inexplicably traded. His role on the Cardinals the year before was <i>exactly</i> like DeRo's with the Cubs: super utility guy who can fill in at a plethora of positions.
Last year, DeRo played 65 games in the outfield for us, 22 at 3B, as well as 1B and SS, so don't tell me he was our fucking 2nd baseman.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

So we replaced a supersub who played 65 games last year in the outfield... with a guy that has played 7 in his career? Makes sense, <i>exactly</i> the same player.

[biggz]

<!--quoteo(post=56910:date=Aug 10 2009, 09:03 PM:name=KBwsb)-->QUOTE (KBwsb @ Aug 10 2009, 09:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Cub's payroll: $143 million
DeRo's salary over Miles: $3 million

Yeah, it was a fucking stupid decision.
And once and for all, please just admit that Miles was brought in to replace DeRo. He was signed the SAME DAY that DeRo was inexplicably traded. His role on the Cardinals the year before was <i>exactly</i> like DeRo's with the Cubs: super utility guy who can fill in at a plethora of positions.
Last year, DeRo played 65 games in the outfield for us, 22 at 3B, as well as 1B and SS, so don't tell me he was our fucking 2nd baseman.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Just because he was signed to be the "utility guy" doesn't mean he was getting the same ABs. Fontenot was projected to be starter and get DeRo's ABs.

So, with that, I say fuck Mark DeRosa. He can eat shit and die, and isn't worth arguing over.

[kbwsb]

1. It is my opinion that the Cubs could have kept DeRosa and still signed Bradley. Common sense.
2. The Bradley signing has looked bad, but...I would still do it over again. Our options seemed to be Milton, or either Ibanez, Abreu or Dunn. Ibanez and Abreu have had wonderful seasons so far, but both are real old, defensive liabilities, and should be expected to decline.
Dunn is typical Dunn; he has more homers than Bradley, Fukudome and Aramis <i>combined</i>, but he sucks with the glove.
I think Milt will continue his upward progression, and be worth the 30 mil by the time all is said and done.