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What does Miles have on Lou and Jim?
<!--quoteo(post=57654:date=Aug 13 2009, 12:37 PM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Aug 13 2009, 12:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->By the way, I apologize for being a dick. I never intend to be mean-spirited in these threads. When BT (and others) and I go back and forth, we're both sort of being dicks to each other, but we both know it's all in good fun. I know that I transfer that tone to most other posters as well and I'm sure some people don't care for it.

I apologize for that, Baron. For real. I don't mean any harm.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pussy.
"I'm not sure I know what ball cheese or crotch rot is, exactly -- or if there is a difference between the two. Don't post photos, please..."

- Butcher
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<!--quoteo(post=57656:date=Aug 13 2009, 12:40 PM:name=PcB)-->QUOTE (PcB @ Aug 13 2009, 12:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=57654:date=Aug 13 2009, 12:37 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Aug 13 2009, 12:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->By the way, I apologize for being a dick. I never intend to be mean-spirited in these threads. When BT (and others) and I go back and forth, we're both sort of being dicks to each other, but we both know it's all in good fun. I know that I transfer that tone to most other posters as well and I'm sure some people don't care for it.

I apologize for that, Baron. For real. I don't mean any harm.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pussy.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can see your future, PcB. It's a little cloudy, but I can see that the merger of your forehead and a sweaty ballsac are in the cards...
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Fuck you, Butch. I'm fucking sick of your shit. All of you are a bunch of negative nancies. I think I might just leave and never *oomph hrmph dmph* HEY! Get that thing outta my mouth!
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." - George Carlin 



"That was some of the saddest stuff I've ever read. Fuck cancer and AIDS, ignorance is the scourge of the land." - tom v

 
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<!--quoteo(post=57652:date=Aug 13 2009, 12:30 PM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Aug 13 2009, 12:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=57651:date=Aug 13 2009, 12:27 PM:name=Baron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Baron @ Aug 13 2009, 12:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=57650:date=Aug 13 2009, 12:24 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Aug 13 2009, 12:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=57649:date=Aug 13 2009, 12:16 PM:name=Baron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Baron @ Aug 13 2009, 12:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=57643:date=Aug 13 2009, 12:03 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Aug 13 2009, 12:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=57641:date=Aug 13 2009, 11:59 AM:name=Baron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Baron @ Aug 13 2009, 11:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=57593:date=Aug 13 2009, 06:45 AM:name=Ace)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ace @ Aug 13 2009, 06:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=57582:date=Aug 12 2009, 11:57 PM:name=Prometheus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Prometheus @ Aug 12 2009, 11:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I don't see why people are still bashing this trade. DeRosa is having a decent year and he's a pretty good player, but he's entering the final year of his contract and he's definitely regressed in some areas (look at his K rates, his K/BB, his LD%, and his wOBA, all of which are worse than last season). His power production has lifted an otherwise mediocre season.

But the Cubs got pitching depth. They traded away 1 year of service for many years of service. Stevens has already made it to the majors and has pitched well between the big leagues and AAA. He'll be likely be a pen arm for the next few years. Gaub has been great between AA and AAA and might crack the major league roster this season. It's looking like he will also be in the bullpen for a while as a LOOGY. Even if Chris Archer doesn't make the major league team, the Cubs have traded away 1 year of service for quite a few more.

I don't mind the DeRosa trade, but I do mind the way Hendry bungled every subsequent move last offseason. Aaron Miles was a joke from the beginning.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

What this guy said.
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That guy gets it.
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Not so much.
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Oh please, I agree with his post and have been impressed with his posts in the gamethread.
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OK? I'm happy for the two of you. That doesn't make him (or you) right.
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Your condescending attitude when arguing a point is so agitating. We get it, you think you are right and think we are retarded.
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I'm glad we're finally on the same page.
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that was awesome.
Wang.
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<!--quoteo(post=57654:date=Aug 13 2009, 12:37 PM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Aug 13 2009, 12:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->By the way, I apologize for being a dick. I never intend to be mean-spirited in these threads. When BT (and others) and I go back and forth, we're both sort of being dicks to each other, but we both know it's all in good fun. I know that I transfer that tone to most other posters as well and I'm sure some people don't care for it.

I apologize for that, Baron. For real. I don't mean any harm.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


and then you ruined it.
Wang.
Reply
<!--quoteo(post=57674:date=Aug 13 2009, 01:30 PM:name=veryzer)-->QUOTE (veryzer @ Aug 13 2009, 01:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=57654:date=Aug 13 2009, 12:37 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Aug 13 2009, 12:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->By the way, I apologize for being a dick. I never intend to be mean-spirited in these threads. When BT (and others) and I go back and forth, we're both sort of being dicks to each other, but we both know it's all in good fun. I know that I transfer that tone to most other posters as well and I'm sure some people don't care for it.

I apologize for that, Baron. For real. I don't mean any harm.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


and then you ruined it.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
[img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif[/img]
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<!--quoteo(post=57654:date=Aug 13 2009, 12:37 PM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Aug 13 2009, 12:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->By the way, I apologize for being a dick. I never intend to be mean-spirited in these threads. When BT (and others) and I go back and forth, we're both sort of being dicks to each other, but we both know it's all in good fun. I know that I transfer that tone to most other posters as well and I'm sure some people don't care for it.

I apologize for that, Baron. For real. I don't mean any harm.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What Butch said.
There's nothing better than to realize that the good things about youth don't end with youth itself. It's a matter of realizing that life can be renewed every day you get out of bed without baggage. It's tough to get there, but it's better than the dark thoughts. -Lance
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Two points:
1-Scarey was kind of getting a hard time on another thread for saying "we're not out of it." I just wanted to say that I agree with him. Rarely does a team go through a season without a really bad stretch. And a lot of teams in recent years have sucked, gotten hot, and won big.
Another example left out of the many listed are the '05 WSox, who very nearly blew the division by sucking unbelievably bad during the last week of the season. Then they got hot. (yeah, I'd like to forget it too, but teams can turn things around on a dime.)

Anyway, there's a month and a half to go, and a LOT stranger things have happened than a fundamentally solid team starting to play up to their abilities.

2-Scarey said I never give Jim credit. That's not true. I praised him often and regularly last season. I applauded the Bradley signing. I've repeatedly admitted I goofed about Choi/Lee.
However, unless we win a World Series (which, let's face it, would cure all ills), it's difficult for me to fully embrace him because I <i>philosophically</i> disagree with his method of building a ball team.

He seems like a real good guy. And, it's not that there's only one way to skin a cat. There are certainly many ways, but his way just happens to be diametrically opposed to my thinking. So when we have a 97-win year, I'm happily surprised, and I enjoy the ride. But when we waste our gigantic payroll, and play poor baseball, I'm bothered by it.

And Jim isn't the only one doing it the way he does it. The closest <i>successful</i> team that uses similar methods are the Angels, and I admit that it would be hard to be a fan of that team for me. But at least the Angels constantly win 90+ games, and make the playoffs almost every year. Almost every other team using those methods are the bottom-dwellers.

As I said, if Jim can make it work, I'll turn a blind eye to his (for me) fingernails-on-a-blackboard approach. As I've said many times, last year was the most enjoyable season in recent memory; I loved it, took the playoff debacle for what it was (tough to blame Jim for that), and praised Jim often during and after the season.

But a lot of the moves he makes are just too weird for me to stomach, so when they do blow up on the Cubs, I admittedly get more pissed than I should. And I apologize, because I know a lot of you guys on the site are huge Hendry fans.
There's nothing better than to realize that the good things about youth don't end with youth itself. It's a matter of realizing that life can be renewed every day you get out of bed without baggage. It's tough to get there, but it's better than the dark thoughts. -Lance
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First, I want to make clear that I noted you giving Hendry credit last year. I however mentioned that I felt it shouldn't take a 97 win season to illicit a positive response from you. Also, I didn't mention before, despite the most successful season (in terms of regular season) I've ever seen as a Cub fan and most of us have seen in our life times, you still found something to fault Hendry on in Fukudome (I may be hazy on this though, I think you actually gave Lou more shit for putting him at the top of the order).

Regardless of all this though, I understand that you do appreciate some things that Hendry does.

And while I'm rolling I just want to address the "Hendry fan" thing. I think most people here would say they are not so much a Hendry fan as much as they are a Cubs GM fan. That's not to say we will blindly follow whoever has the Cubs GM title, but Hendry is responsible for compiling some of my favorite Cub players. How could I not like that?

The other part of it is I personally am someone who has agreed with just about 90% of what Hendry has done <i><b>at the time it was done</b></i>. Now, in retrospect trading for Garciaparra for instance sucks and I wish it would have never happened. But I can't fault the guy for that trade because I was extatic at the time when Nomar was acquired.

What I'm getting at is I'm not a Hendry fan. If he was fired tomorrow I would disagree with it, but I wouldn't be devastated. I'm a fan of any GM that puts the Cubs in a good position to win and frankly, Hendry has.
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I was also curious KB, what do you feel is the formula that the Cubs and Angels use for building their teams? I'm just curious and this could even be it's own thread. I personally don't draw much of a comparison between the two teams. They aren't polar opposites, but I'm just curious what similarities can be seen in them.

And what are the team building philosophies that you would be more in favor of that the Cubs don't employ?
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Scarey, I don't know where to start. But I'll try to give an outline, (with some old-school KB graphics, to the non-delight of many.)

I think Butcher would agree with me that the #1 Hendry fault (and to restate the obvious, he has many plusses. Yes he does.), but his #1 minus (IMO) is his view of "<b>how to spend a payroll dollar</b>." The way he <i>values</i> things in baseball players. Money.

Uninformed people who didn't read the book say things like "Moneyball is about On-base percentage." No. It isn't. It's about properly valuing baseball players, and exploiting inefficiencies in the market. At the time (late '90's, early this decade) OBP was not given its proper importance by most teams, so the A's (the subject of the book) exploited that oversight, and became a perennial winner despite being a small-market team. (and as the book mentioned, the other team at the time who made a big deal about OBP, the Yankees, won 4 championships in 5 years.)

Nowadays, probably 15-20 of the 30 teams strive to make OBP a big part of their picture; thus, <i>that</i> market is tougher to corner, but crafty GM's are trying to exploit <i>new</i> inefficiencies (the draft, Latin America, advanced fielding stats, positional value, how a player's age relates to value, etc.)

Some teams, inexplicably, still don't properly value OBP. We talked about the unorthodox practices of the Angels, but last time I looked, they were leading the majors in OBP, so there's a reason they're scoring all those runs.
From an SI Joe Posnanski piece:
<b>On-base percentage is just so much bigger than so many people seem to realize. On-base percentage is not some convoluted modern statistic. On-base percentage is not something new ... it goes back to the time before Ty Cobb. On-base percentage is not even about walks. On-base percentage is simply the core of baseball, the very heart of it since the first ball hit the first stick. It is about how many times a batter gets on -- and, conversely, how many times he makes outs. It is what the game is all about.

It isn't about <i>walks</i>, it really isn't. That's one thing everyone seems to miss. You say OBP and everyone says, "Oh, walks." But that's not it. Walks and hits by pitch make up a pretty small portion of on-base percentage. <i>Most of it is hitting</i>.</b>

The Cubs during the Hendry Years:

Rank in MLB for OBP and Runs Scored (Cubs)
2009: OBP-19th, Runs-22nd
2008: OBP-<!--coloro:#0000FF--><!--/coloro-->2nd<!--colorc-->
<!--/colorc-->, Runs-<!--coloro:#0000FF--><!--/coloro-->2nd<!--colorc-->
<!--/colorc-->
2007: OBP-17th, Runs-18th
2006: OBP-29th, Runs-28th
2005: OBP-20th, Runs-20th
2004: OBP-23rd, Runs-16th
2003: OBP-23rd, Runs-20th

It seems to me from the above graph that 2008 was a lucky aberration, instead of a well thought-out, well-executed "plan." (I could be totally wrong. But every other year of his tenure, we've finished BELOW the league average in both categories.). And that was why, though I was quick to give credit to Jim on certain things, I mainly just enjoyed the ride last year, and wasn't frothing over with praise for Jim, even though I was extremely happy with the Cubs' play.

So that's it in a thumbnail, but doesn't come close to totally covering it. (For instance, Jim refuses to believe the stats that say players reach their peak performance in their mid-to-late 20's, and constantly puts together teams heavy on players on the wrong side of 30).
But these two articles do a good job of explaining how I feel; the second one I've printed out because it's especially pertinent.

1. Observation vs. analysis

2.
<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec--><b>Stats vs. Royals</b>
Posted: July 12th, 2009

There is something about this whole Royals-Yuni Betancourt deal that I can’t quite let go of … and I’m not entirely sure I’m going to be able to get at that something. It is more about being a fan, I think, than being a Royals fan.

A few months ago, I wrote about how <!--coloro:#008000--><!--/coloro--><b>one of the more frustrating things about being a fan is when you root for a team that so clearly has a different philosophy about sports than you have about sports</b>.<!--colorc-->
<!--/colorc--> For instance, my buddy Chardon Jimmy is a huge fan of football defense … nothing thrills him more about the game than a team that focuses on stuffing the run and going after the quarterback. It is his burden in life, however, to be a Cincinnati Bengals fan, a team that — even in their rare good years — really doesn’t stuff the run or go after the quarterback. He still loves the Bengals because that’s his team and here in July, just before training camp, he is once again hopeful that his team will live up to his image (“I think they have the making of a dominant defense!”) but he is not unaware that for the last 35 years, he has been rooting for a football team that simply doesn’t see the world the way he sees it.

I suspect this isn’t uncommon. There are undoubtedly fans of fast-paced basketball who find themselves stuck rooting for teams that slowly dribble the ball up the court. There are undoubtedly college football fans of power running attacks who are stuck with teams that are playing the ubiquitous spread offense. There are undoubtedly baseball fans who love power and on-base percentage and find themselves stuck with a team trying to win with speed and defense. And so on. Every so often, you get lucky and the team you love plays precisely the style you love (and also wins) and that’s when it is magical. But it doesn’t happen very much.

I bring this point up again because it seems to me now that the hard truth about Yuniesky Betancourt is that, plainly, either the numbers I am looking at are wrong or the Royals are wrong. There is no middle ground here, no way for both of them to be right.

The numbers I see suggest that Yuniesky Betancourt is a terrible defensive shortstop. Not a mediocre shortstop. Not a talented but sloppy shortstop. Not a shaky shortstop. No. Terrible. Ghastly. Tragic. I’ve already shown you his UZR numbers, his John Dewan plus/minus numbers — they tell the story of a shortstop who was never especially great (despite his ability to make sensational plays) and has progressively gotten worse and worse until now he has no range, no consistency and might be the worst defensive shortstop in the game.

The Royals, obviously, believe this is entirely wrong. The numbers I have chosen to see are wrong. They believe Betancourt is actually a very good defensive shortstop with a chance to be the best. They believe that his problem is that he can be inconsistent but that he has tremendous ability and that with a new start, a stable environment, a firm but encouraging group of coaches and teammates, he can shake off that inconsistency and pull out that remarkable talent.

The numbers I see suggest that Yuniesky Betancourt is the worst every day offensive player in the American League and has been for quite some time. There are countless numbers I can use to make this point — at the most basic level, Betancourt’s .299 on-base percentage since 2007 is the worst in baseball for anyone with 1,300 or more plate appearances.

<!--coloro:#0000FF--><!--/coloro-->Anyway, <b>numbers</b> suggest Betancourt is a terrible offensive player. But the Royals, obviously, believe this is entirely wrong.<!--colorc-->
<!--/colorc--> They will mention a statistic of choice (he has a lifetime .279 batting average), but more they will talk about how he has the attributes of a potentially good hitter, he doesn’t strike out much, he has a little pop in his bat, and (once again) given that new start he might become a good (not necessarily great, but good) offensive player who will help the ballclub.

The numbers I see suggest Betancourt is in serious decline. He’s 27 now — he’ll be 28 in January — and the fact that his defensive statistics are in a free-fall, the fact that his offensive numbers fell off last year and have fallen way off this year (at age 26 and 27, which are often a players’ peak years), the fact that his pop-up numbers are on the rise — this year more than 21% of his fly balls are infield pop-ups — and the general belief that he has never been the hardest worker in the first place, all of these might lead you to believe that he is not going to get much BETTER from here on out.

But the Royals, obviously, disagree with this too. They see a guy who is only 27, a guy who still has a chance (given a fresh start and the right kind of attitude shift) to improve, perhaps only a little, perhaps a great deal.*

*This is pure opinion, but I have come to believe that the Royals biggest problem lately may have to do with their <b>philosophy about a player’s age</b>. It is SO important that a team understand the aging process of a player. I’m not here to tell you that I have it right and they have it wrong. But I will say this … the Royals signed a 32-year-old Jose Guillen in the belief that he would maintain his skills. He hasn’t. They traded for a 28-year-old Mike Jacobs in the hope that he would continue to hit with power while improving his weak spots (like his on-base percentage). So far — despite a good attitude and worth ethic — he has seriously gone backward. They traded for a 29-year-old Coco Crisp in the hope that he would provide an every day leadoff man and stability; he never looked entirely healthy and then he was out for the year.

Now, they’re trading for a 27-year-old guy who has shown signs of decline the last year and a half and they hope he will stem the tide and actually improve his earlier performance. I don’t know … lots of things are possible, but it seems to me that if you always are expecting someone 27 years or older to improve, or someone 32 years or older to sustain, well, that’s probably not a winning philosophy.

Now look: I could be misreading the numbers. I could be looking at the wrong numbers. And I would never write off the possibility that the Royals (who have much more information and have spent much more time studying the matter) are entirely right and I’m entirely wrong. In fact, I hope that’s true. I have always hoped for that.

But it gets us back to the point: Either the Royals are right or the numbers (as I look at them here) are right. For years now, Kansas City fans have been stuck rooting for the Royals to beat the numbers. And, for years now, the numbers have been kicking the Royals butts.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's nothing better than to realize that the good things about youth don't end with youth itself. It's a matter of realizing that life can be renewed every day you get out of bed without baggage. It's tough to get there, but it's better than the dark thoughts. -Lance
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