Imagine: 2009 minus Soriano

[leonardsipes]

<!--quoteo(post=62735:date=Sep 11 2009, 04:39 PM:name=KBwsb)-->QUOTE (KBwsb @ Sep 11 2009, 04:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=62726:date=Sep 11 2009, 04:21 PM:name=rok)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rok @ Sep 11 2009, 04:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Maybe my memory is a little foggy, but I don't believe that we were ever in the running for Beltran either via trade nor in the FA market. Weren't we still loyal to CPatt at the time?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It was certainly discussed at length on ITI. In fact, my signature at the bottom of each post was something like "TRADE FOR BELTRAN" that year. (Until Houston traded for him; they traded Octavio Dotel, John Buck and cash).
And Jim certainly tried to get him that winter. It was reported that he offered Beltran $96 million, which was a pretty high figure (though not close to the $117 or 119 mil the Mets ponied up).
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Which is less than they ended up paying Soriano. As a center fielder and all around better palyer, Beltran would have been a much better value. If the Cubs would have signed Beltran, they could have traded Pie, Hill, Cpat, and Cedeno to the Yanks and had Soriano too.

[BT]

<!--quoteo(post=62690:date=Sep 11 2009, 02:48 PM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Sep 11 2009, 02:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->What could have been...<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


I don't know how to break this to you, but most people consider the Lee signing to be almost as bad as Soriano.

Here is ESPN calling him the 12 worst contract in baseball (behind Soriano at 6).

Here are multiple Astro fans bitching about how untradeable (and lazy) he is.

He is constantly ripped by the people at baseball prospectus for having a bad contract.

Bear in mind he plays in a bandbox, but he he makes as much as Soriano, is almost as bad a fielder, and will probably end up falling off almost as quickly as Soriano has.

Wishing that we had him instead of Soriano is a bit like mocking someone for fucking Estelle Getty, then going out and nailing Bea Arthur.

[jeffy]

<!--quoteo(post=62758:date=Sep 11 2009, 11:30 PM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Sep 11 2009, 11:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Wishing that we had him instead of Soriano is a bit like mocking someone for fucking Estelle Getty, then going out and nailing Bea Arthur.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


I disagree. Carlos Lee is a much more consistent hitter than Soriano. Imagine if we had DLee, Ramirez, and Carlos Lee all in the same lineup. It would be a better team offensively, and no worse defensively.

[veryzer]

<!--quoteo(post=62758:date=Sep 11 2009, 11:30 PM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Sep 11 2009, 11:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=62690:date=Sep 11 2009, 02:48 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Sep 11 2009, 02:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->What could have been...<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


I don't know how to break this to you, but most people consider the Lee signing to be almost as bad as Soriano.

Here is ESPN calling him the 12 worst contract in baseball (behind Soriano at 6).

Here are multiple Astro fans bitching about how untradeable (and lazy) he is.

He is constantly ripped by the people at baseball prospectus for having a bad contract.

Bear in mind he plays in a bandbox, but he he makes as much as Soriano, is almost as bad a fielder, and will probably end up falling off almost as quickly as Soriano has.

Wishing that we had him instead of Soriano is a bit like mocking someone for fucking Estelle Getty, then going out and nailing Bea Arthur.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


i tend to agree with most of what bt says, but not here. look at the stats. it's really not even close. lee stays healthy. lee drives in 100+ runs every year. lee's ops is solid. he's more consistent. he dominates wrigley field. lee was a better fit.

[PcB]

<!--quoteo(post=62768:date=Sep 12 2009, 09:08 AM:name=veryzer)-->QUOTE (veryzer @ Sep 12 2009, 09:08 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=62758:date=Sep 11 2009, 11:30 PM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Sep 11 2009, 11:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=62690:date=Sep 11 2009, 02:48 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Sep 11 2009, 02:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->What could have been...<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


I don't know how to break this to you, but most people consider the Lee signing to be almost as bad as Soriano.

Here is ESPN calling him the 12 worst contract in baseball (behind Soriano at 6).

Here are multiple Astro fans bitching about how untradeable (and lazy) he is.

He is constantly ripped by the people at baseball prospectus for having a bad contract.

Bear in mind he plays in a bandbox, but he he makes as much as Soriano, is almost as bad a fielder, and will probably end up falling off almost as quickly as Soriano has.

Wishing that we had him instead of Soriano is a bit like mocking someone for fucking Estelle Getty, then going out and nailing Bea Arthur.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


i tend to agree with most of what bt says, but not here. look at the stats. it's really not even close. lee stays healthy. lee drives in 100+ runs every year. lee's ops is solid. he's more consistent. he dominates wrigley field. lee was a better fit.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I love Soriano, but I'm with slim on this one.

[Butcher]

Yeah. BT will find himself lonely on this one.

[Brock]

Soriano out OPS'd Lee in 2007 and wasn't all that far off Lee's 2008.

[BT]

<!--quoteo(post=62792:date=Sep 12 2009, 12:44 PM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Sep 12 2009, 12:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Yeah. BT will find himself lonely on this one.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


It's got NOTHING to do with what BT thinks on this one. I am telling you, AS A FACT, Lee's contract is generally regarded as AWFUL. By pretty much everyone but you guys. He is almost as untradeable as Soriano. He is getting 18.5 for the next 3 years after this one. He's a bad fielder. He plays in a bandbox. If you believe Astro fans, he is lazy to boot.

I'm not saying Soriano is better than him. I am saying that complaining about a shitty fielding, all bat, left fielder who is getting older and still has an unmovable monster contract left to deal with, then posing the idea that Carlos would be the ANSWER to that, is absurd.

[jeffy]

Thing is though, if we had Lee we wouldn't be talking about getting rid of him. Can't say the same for Soriano. The reason is that Lee is simply a better and much more consistent hitter. Sure, Soriano is amazing when he's hot, but we all know the story when he's not. Lee is reliable, has great power, strikes out a ton less than soriano, and Houston fans should be thankful to have his bat.

[Butcher]

<!--quoteo(post=62810:date=Sep 12 2009, 02:40 PM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Sep 12 2009, 02:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=62792:date=Sep 12 2009, 12:44 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Sep 12 2009, 12:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Yeah. BT will find himself lonely on this one.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


It's got NOTHING to do with what BT thinks on this one. I am telling you, AS A FACT, Lee's contract is generally regarded as AWFUL. By pretty much everyone but you guys. He is almost as untradeable as Soriano. He is getting 18.5 for the next 3 years after this one. He's a bad fielder. He plays in a bandbox. If you believe Astro fans, he is lazy to boot.

I'm not saying Soriano is better than him. I am saying that complaining about a shitty fielding, all bat, left fielder who is getting older and still has an unmovable monster contract left to deal with, then posing the idea that Carlos would be the ANSWER to that, is absurd.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is Lee's contract bad? Sure. But it's two years shorter than Soriano's -- which makes it a whole lot easier to swallow. Lee and Alf were signed in the same offseason -- that's why the comparison continues to get drawn. Who wouldn't trade Alf for Lee, straight-up?

Nobody is saying Lee's contract is a steal. But it's a much better contract than Alf's. And he has been a much better player as well. I'm not even sure what you're arguing.

[savant]

There was also a lot of indications that Lee would have been here, and may have been had for five years. I must say that the only person I wanted tied up long term less than Lee was Soriano, but the eight years still just blows my mind. For the record, I wanted JD Drew, which would have kept us out of being involved with Fukudome. As it stands now, we are going to be on the hook for Soriano for two years and $36 million, after the world has already ended.

[dk123]

It all comes down to consistency. If you look at the monthly splits the last 3 seasons, Carlos Lee is always at least good and sometimes very good. With Soriano, there are some amazing months, but there are also many shitty ones. As great as Soriano can be, his lack of consistency is a big problem. It's nice that he can have a month were he has a 200 OPS+, but I would rather have a guy who is consistently good and productive than a guy who is so up and down. I think the chances are much better of avoiding bad losing streaks when you have consistent players, and I like the chances of the consistent player in the postseason more than the streaky great/bad player.

[rok]

<!--quoteo(post=62830:date=Sep 12 2009, 06:08 PM:name=dk123)-->QUOTE (dk123 @ Sep 12 2009, 06:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->It all comes down to consistency. If you look at the monthly splits the last 3 seasons, Carlos Lee is always at least good and sometimes very good. With Soriano, there are some amazing months, but there are also many shitty ones. As great as Soriano can be, his lack of consistency is a big problem. It's nice that he can have a month were he has a 200 OPS+, but I would rather have a guy who is consistently good and productive than a guy who is so up and down. I think the chances are much better of avoiding bad losing streaks when you have consistent players, and I like the chances of the consistent player in the postseason more than the streaky great/bad player.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's where I'm at as well. The last thing this team needed was another streaky, all offense, no defense corner OF locked up for almost a decade.

[bz]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuY4qp1DsBM

[BT]

<!--quoteo(post=62816:date=Sep 12 2009, 03:24 PM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Sep 12 2009, 03:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=62810:date=Sep 12 2009, 02:40 PM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Sep 12 2009, 02:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=62792:date=Sep 12 2009, 12:44 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Sep 12 2009, 12:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Yeah. BT will find himself lonely on this one.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


It's got NOTHING to do with what BT thinks on this one. I am telling you, AS A FACT, Lee's contract is generally regarded as AWFUL. By pretty much everyone but you guys. He is almost as untradeable as Soriano. He is getting 18.5 for the next 3 years after this one. He's a bad fielder. He plays in a bandbox. If you believe Astro fans, he is lazy to boot.

I'm not saying Soriano is better than him. I am saying that complaining about a shitty fielding, all bat, left fielder who is getting older and still has an unmovable monster contract left to deal with, then posing the idea that Carlos would be the ANSWER to that, is absurd.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is Lee's contract bad? Sure. But it's two years shorter than Soriano's -- which makes it a whole lot easier to swallow. Lee and Alf were signed in the same offseason -- that's why the comparison continues to get drawn. Who wouldn't trade Alf for Lee, straight-up?

Nobody is saying Lee's contract is a steal. But it's a much better contract than Alf's. And he has been a much better player as well. I'm not even sure what you're arguing.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


I'm arguing that the saying the ideal person to replace an older overpaid one dimensional left fielder who will be horribly overpaid by the end of his contract is NOT Carlos Lee.

I'm arguing that hating Soriano because he is overpaid, and wanting Lee instead is illogical.

Would I trade Soriano for Lee? Yes. But it's ridiculous to pretend that one is a disaster and the other would be a savior. You would have pretty much all of the same problems with Lee, they'd only be slightly less bad.