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<!--quoteo(post=64035:date=Sep 22 2009, 02:30 PM:name=veryzer)-->QUOTE (veryzer @ Sep 22 2009, 02:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=64023:date=Sep 22 2009, 01:26 PM:name=jstraw)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jstraw @ Sep 22 2009, 01:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I used to argue that MVP didn't mean simply "best." If you were the best...but on a loaded team...then your year may not have made a difference...and if you were the best but on a last place team...then it clearly made no difference. What was your VALUE? It should go to the player who's excellence made the most difference to his team.
I gave up. It always goes to the best player (in people's opinions) regardless of whether it added any value.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
there have been many examples of the best player in the league not winning an mvp. most of the time (not all of the time) the mvp comes from a contending team, whether that player had the best year or not.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's as it should be...though I'm not confident that there are many examples where this occurred when there were incontrovertibly "better" players that did not win.
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<!--quoteo(post=64040:date=Sep 22 2009, 02:58 PM:name=jstraw)-->QUOTE (jstraw @ Sep 22 2009, 02:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=64035:date=Sep 22 2009, 02:30 PM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Sep 22 2009, 02:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=64023:date=Sep 22 2009, 01:26 PM:name=jstraw)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jstraw @ Sep 22 2009, 01:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I used to argue that MVP didn't mean simply "best." If you were the best...but on a loaded team...then your year may not have made a difference...and if you were the best but on a last place team...then it clearly made no difference. What was your VALUE? It should go to the player who's excellence made the most difference to his team.
I gave up. It always goes to the best player (in people's opinions) regardless of whether it added any value.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
there have been many examples of the best player in the league not winning an mvp. most of the time (not all of the time) the mvp comes from a contending team, whether that player had the best year or not.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's as it should be...though I'm not confident that there are many examples where this occurred when there were incontrovertibly "better" players that did not win.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
trust me, there are lots. go find the list. ted williams won two triple crowns and didn't win an mvp either time. marty marion won an mvp one year and he was brutal.
Wang.
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You only have to look as far back as Ryan Howard.
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We always waste D-Lee's best years.
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Ummm, this season has been ridiculous.
<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->While celebrating a come-from-behind, ninth-inning win over the San Francisco Giants on Thursday, the Chicago Cubs couldn't avoid yet another "Cubby Occurrence."
First baseman Derrek Lee scored the game-tying run ahead of Jeff Baker, whose two-out, two-strike home run off San Francisco closer Brian Wilson put the team in line for the win.
As Lee and Baker were mobbed by teammates in the dugout, relief pitcher <b>Angel Guzman slapped the side of Lee's helmet, causing Lee to experience neck spasms that forced him to come out of the game for defense in the bottom of the ninth</b>.
Lee has missed numerous games over the years with neck and back spasms, after initially suffering the injury in a home-plate collision in 2006.
After the game Thursday, Lee told team personnel that he'd be in the lineup Friday night, but the team's training staff could insist that he sit out a game or two.
Manager Lou Piniella coined the term "Cubby Occurrence" to explain strange happenings that may have factored into the organization going more than 100 years without winning a World Series.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
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If our remaining games were of any consequence, I would be concerned.
I got nothin'.
Andy
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Facing Linecum tonight. Should probably sit him anyway.
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<!--quoteo(post=64372:date=Sep 25 2009, 11:29 AM:name=Coldneck)-->QUOTE (Coldneck @ Sep 25 2009, 11:29 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Ummm, this season has been ridiculous.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <!--quotec-->While celebrating a come-from-behind, ninth-inning win over the San Francisco Giants on Thursday, the Chicago Cubs couldn't avoid yet another "Cubby Occurrence."
First baseman Derrek Lee scored the game-tying run ahead of Jeff Baker, whose two-out, two-strike home run off San Francisco closer Brian Wilson put the team in line for the win.
As Lee and Baker were mobbed by teammates in the dugout, relief pitcher <b>Angel Guzman slapped the side of Lee's helmet, causing Lee to experience neck spasms that forced him to come out of the game for defense in the bottom of the ninth</b>.
Lee has missed numerous games over the years with neck and back spasms, after initially suffering the injury in a home-plate collision in 2006.
After the game Thursday, Lee told team personnel that he'd be in the lineup Friday night, but the team's training staff could insist that he sit out a game or two.
Manager Lou Piniella coined the term "Cubby Occurrence" to explain strange happenings that may have factored into the organization going more than 100 years without winning a World Series.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Believe that this would be the Cubs second celebration-related injury this season, or did I lose track?
We had Dempster's broken toe after a win in July.
http://blogs.chicagosports.chicagotribune....broken-toe.html
Lucky this team didn't win more often as it can't seem to handle celebrating.
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<!--quoteo(post=63996:date=Sep 22 2009, 09:46 AM:name=Coldneck)-->QUOTE (Coldneck @ Sep 22 2009, 09:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=63990:date=Sep 22 2009, 10:31 AM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Sep 22 2009, 10:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->dlee is quietly having a monster season. if the cubs were in contention, i would think he'd be getting some mvp consideration. last night he tied his career high in rbi, he's batting over .300 and he's playing the same gold glove calibre 1st base he always has.
on top of that, he's a class act, a leader, and a role model. the fact he's accomplished all this under the intense racial scrutiny of wrigley field is a testament to his character and courage.
i for one, would love to see him finish out his career here. extension? absolutely.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
See Tom, this is the exact thinking that gets GMs in trouble. Lee is great and he's had a fantastic season. But there is no way we should offer him an extension prior to the end of his contract next season. After next season we may have a prospect ready to take over (Vitters won't stay at 3B). Lee will be 35 years old which is when nearly all players are in the middle of a major decline. Giving Lee an extension prior to the end of next season would be based on emotion and irresponsible. Now if Lee puts up a similar season in 2010, than I think we should offer him at maximum, a two year deal.
And nobody but Pujols should be getting MVP consideration. His season is far an away better than any other player in the NL.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Coldneck is 100% correct.
D Lee is my favorite Cub, but giving him an extension so he can '"finish his career in a Cub uniform" is plain bad GMing (remember how that turned out with Ryno? and countless others?)
Also, Hanley Ramirez and Chase Utley will finish 2nd and 3rd in the MVP vote. Deservedly.
There's nothing better than to realize that the good things about youth don't end with youth itself. It's a matter of realizing that life can be renewed every day you get out of bed without baggage. It's tough to get there, but it's better than the dark thoughts. -Lance
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<!--quoteo(post=64392:date=Sep 25 2009, 02:26 PM:name=KBwsb)-->QUOTE (KBwsb @ Sep 25 2009, 02:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=63996:date=Sep 22 2009, 09:46 AM:name=Coldneck)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coldneck @ Sep 22 2009, 09:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=63990:date=Sep 22 2009, 10:31 AM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Sep 22 2009, 10:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->dlee is quietly having a monster season. if the cubs were in contention, i would think he'd be getting some mvp consideration. last night he tied his career high in rbi, he's batting over .300 and he's playing the same gold glove calibre 1st base he always has.
on top of that, he's a class act, a leader, and a role model. the fact he's accomplished all this under the intense racial scrutiny of wrigley field is a testament to his character and courage.
i for one, would love to see him finish out his career here. extension? absolutely.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
See Tom, this is the exact thinking that gets GMs in trouble. Lee is great and he's had a fantastic season. But there is no way we should offer him an extension prior to the end of his contract next season. After next season we may have a prospect ready to take over (Vitters won't stay at 3B). Lee will be 35 years old which is when nearly all players are in the middle of a major decline. Giving Lee an extension prior to the end of next season would be based on emotion and irresponsible. Now if Lee puts up a similar season in 2010, than I think we should offer him at maximum, a two year deal.
And nobody but Pujols should be getting MVP consideration. His season is far an away better than any other player in the NL.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Coldneck is 100% correct.
D Lee is my favorite Cub, but giving him an extension so he can '"finish his career in a Cub uniform" is plain bad GMing (remember how that turned out with Ryno? and countless others?)
Also, Hanley Ramirez and Chase Utley will finish 2nd and 3rd in the MVP vote. Deservedly.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
why did you bring up ramirez and utley? just curious.
Wang.
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Because we were talking about MVP candidates. Considering that they are both middle infielders and fantastic baserunners, their all-around value is massive. Plus, they both are having near-Pujols level offensive years, while playing on teams in the pennant race.
Do you really think they are not going to end up in the top-10 in the MVP race?
There's nothing better than to realize that the good things about youth don't end with youth itself. It's a matter of realizing that life can be renewed every day you get out of bed without baggage. It's tough to get there, but it's better than the dark thoughts. -Lance
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<!--quoteo(post=64412:date=Sep 25 2009, 05:25 PM:name=KBwsb)-->QUOTE (KBwsb @ Sep 25 2009, 05:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=64400:date=Sep 25 2009, 03:08 PM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Sep 25 2009, 03:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=64392:date=Sep 25 2009, 02:26 PM:name=KBwsb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KBwsb @ Sep 25 2009, 02:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=63996:date=Sep 22 2009, 09:46 AM:name=Coldneck)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coldneck @ Sep 22 2009, 09:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=63990:date=Sep 22 2009, 10:31 AM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Sep 22 2009, 10:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->dlee is quietly having a monster season. if the cubs were in contention, i would think he'd be getting some mvp consideration. last night he tied his career high in rbi, he's batting over .300 and he's playing the same gold glove calibre 1st base he always has.
on top of that, he's a class act, a leader, and a role model. the fact he's accomplished all this under the intense racial scrutiny of wrigley field is a testament to his character and courage.
i for one, would love to see him finish out his career here. extension? absolutely.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
See Tom, this is the exact thinking that gets GMs in trouble. Lee is great and he's had a fantastic season. But there is no way we should offer him an extension prior to the end of his contract next season. After next season we may have a prospect ready to take over (Vitters won't stay at 3B). Lee will be 35 years old which is when nearly all players are in the middle of a major decline. Giving Lee an extension prior to the end of next season would be based on emotion and irresponsible. Now if Lee puts up a similar season in 2010, than I think we should offer him at maximum, a two year deal.
And nobody but Pujols should be getting MVP consideration. His season is far an away better than any other player in the NL.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Coldneck is 100% correct.
D Lee is my favorite Cub, but giving him an extension so he can '"finish his career in a Cub uniform" is plain bad GMing (remember how that turned out with Ryno? and countless others?)
Also, Hanley Ramirez and Chase Utley will finish 2nd and 3rd in the MVP vote. Deservedly.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
why did you bring up ramirez and utley? just curious.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because we were talking about MVP candidates. Considering that they are both middle infielders and fantastic baserunners, their all-around value is massive. Plus, they both are having near-Pujols level offensive years, while playing on teams in the pennant race.
Do you really think they are not going to end up in the top-10 in the MVP race?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
oh no, i totally agree with you. i was just wondering why you brought them up. my original statement was that IF the cubs were in contention, lee would be getting some CONSIDERATION. that's why i was wondering why you brought them up.
Wang.
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There is no doubt that D Lee would get consideration in the MVP race, if the Cubs were in contention. There are 10 spots on the ballot, and I'm confident that he'd be in the top 10.
Heck, he may end up in the top 10 or 15 even WITH the Cub suckage this year.
There's nothing better than to realize that the good things about youth don't end with youth itself. It's a matter of realizing that life can be renewed every day you get out of bed without baggage. It's tough to get there, but it's better than the dark thoughts. -Lance
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<!--quoteo(post=64421:date=Sep 25 2009, 06:38 PM:name=KBwsb)-->QUOTE (KBwsb @ Sep 25 2009, 06:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->There is no doubt that D Lee would get consideration in the MVP race, if the Cubs were in contention. There are 10 spots on the ballot, and I'm confident that he'd be in the top 10.
Heck, he may end up in the top 10 or 15 even WITH the Cub suckage this year.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He should be top 10 at least. He's taken a team that's been awful in almost every way and gotten them 7 games above .500.
The thing you need to remember is that all Cardinals fans and all White Sox fans are very bad people. It's a fact that has been scientifically proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. Being a Cubs fan is the only path to rightousness and piousness. Cardinal and White Sox fans exist to be the dark, diabolical forces that oppose us. They are the yin to our yang, the Joker to our Batman, the demon to our angel, the insurgence to our freedom, the oil to our water, the club to our baby seal. Their happiness occurs only in direct conflict with everything that is pure and good in this world.
-Dirk
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As Coach said, it's truly a shame that we tend to waste the best years of Lee's career. So many things have gone wrong this year that the list is almost uncountable. If only a few of them had gone right, we'd be in the WC race.
BTW, D Lee is something like 3rd in OPS.
In all of MLB! (I think Pujols and the fat guy with the untucked shirt are 1 and 2)
There's nothing better than to realize that the good things about youth don't end with youth itself. It's a matter of realizing that life can be renewed every day you get out of bed without baggage. It's tough to get there, but it's better than the dark thoughts. -Lance
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