11-20-2009, 02:15 PM
Let me just add this -- I didn't hate the Bradley deal (I didn't like the third year, but whatever). I'm speaking more on Hendry's tendency, as a whole, to give out these kind of contracts.
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Cubs and Grabow discussing multi-year deal
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11-20-2009, 02:51 PM
<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->If Hendry waited out the market, he could have landed Abreu for 1 year at $8M.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NO. He couldn't. Why can't people understand Abreu's signing is a complete anomaly? When Ibanez, Bradley, and Dunn signed, Abreu had NO leverage. None. No one needed him. The Angels had Matthews, Guerrero, and Hunter in their OF. They also had Juan Rivera, Kendry Morales and Brandon Wood. They had no NEED for a DH or for an OF. None. Abreu had no one else to sign with. If he said to the Angels, I want 2 years, 24 million, they'd politely say "Fuck you, we have an OF. Here's 5 million. Take it or leave it". You'll notice Abreu signed with LAA the day after Dunn signed officially with the Nats. If the Cubs have waited out the market, and come to Abreu with an offer of 8 million, he would have politely said "Fuck you, I'm your only option, I want a 3 year deal". And what would the Cubs response have been? "Fuck you, were going with Fuld and Johnson"? Not much of a threat there. Abreu would have had all the leverage. The Cubs would have had none. Or, the exact opposite of the Angels situation. <!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->Nobody was worried about him choking Len Kasper -- everyone was worried about his health. That wasn't really a concern with Ibanez.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, and that drove down his signing price. But to assume it drove it down to 2/13 seems preposterous to me. He was troubled at this time last year, not toxic.
I wish that I believed in Fate. I wish I didn't sleep so late. I used to be carried in the arms of cheerleaders.
11-20-2009, 02:55 PM
<!--quoteo(post=69769:date=Nov 20 2009, 11:59 AM:name=Scarey)-->QUOTE (Scarey @ Nov 20 2009, 11:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=69768:date=Nov 20 2009, 12:57 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Nov 20 2009, 12:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=69767:date=Nov 20 2009, 10:54 AM:name=Scarey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Scarey @ Nov 20 2009, 10:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=69762:date=Nov 20 2009, 12:31 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Nov 20 2009, 12:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Hendry has no sense of what the market is for certain players. Bradley had one other team offering him more than a 1-year deal (the Rays -- 2/13). Why the fuck did he offer him 3/30? Who was he bidding against? Same deal with Jock Jones. Same deal here. How about Aaron Fucking Miles? I think there's a good chance that Miles doesn't land a major league contract if Hendry didn't snatch him up.
Nobody was going to give up a first round pick for Grabow, so there was absolutely NO reason to not offer him arbitration. Either he accepts, and we sign him for a year or we work out a cheaper deal. This better be Hendry's last year with this organization. I'm fed up.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--> You're probably right about Jacque and pretty much dead on right about Grabow. But I never understood why people seemed to think we could have had Bradley for much lower than he was given. He signed a 2 year 20 mill deal with an almost unheard of extra year contingent on games played in his first year. How exactly do you know what the Rays were offering him and that no other team was interested? Yes I know Bradley had plenty of faults, but he just got done with back to back 900+ OPS seasons. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> C'mon, dude. It was a 3 year deal. The contingent was a total joke. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Name me another player that has had such a contingency in his contract? I can name one in Magglio. Other than that, it's pretty damn difficult to get that into a contract. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's not hard to put something like that in a contract when your offer is more than 100% larger than the only competition. Even if he didn't get year three he still would have earned 7M more than the 2 year deal we were competing against. I've been saying Hendry has worn out his welcome for the last year. I'm glad others are finally coming around to my line of thinking. 
11-20-2009, 03:19 PM
<!--quoteo(post=69791:date=Nov 20 2009, 12:51 PM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Nov 20 2009, 12:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <!--quotec-->If Hendry waited out the market, he could have landed Abreu for 1 year at $8M.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NO. He couldn't. Why can't people understand Abreu's signing is a complete anomaly? When Ibanez, Bradley, and Dunn signed, Abreu had NO leverage. None. No one needed him. The Angels had Matthews, Guerrero, and Hunter in their OF. They also had Juan Rivera, Kendry Morales and Brandon Wood. They had no NEED for a DH or for an OF. None. Abreu had no one else to sign with. If he said to the Angels, I want 2 years, 24 million, they'd politely say "Fuck you, we have an OF. Here's 5 million. Take it or leave it". You'll notice Abreu signed with LAA the day after Dunn signed officially with the Nats. If the Cubs have waited out the market, and come to Abreu with an offer of 8 million, he would have politely said "Fuck you, I'm your only option, I want a 3 year deal". And what would the Cubs response have been? "Fuck you, were going with Fuld and Johnson"? Not much of a threat there. Abreu would have had all the leverage. The Cubs would have had none. Or, the exact opposite of the Angels situation. <!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->Nobody was worried about him choking Len Kasper -- everyone was worried about his health. That wasn't really a concern with Ibanez.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, and that drove down his signing price. But to assume it drove it down to 2/13 seems preposterous to me. He was troubled at this time last year, not toxic. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Have you noticed that Bradley has been on 5 teams in the last 4 years? If we trade him this offseason, it will be 6 teams in 5 years. Teams aren't exactly lining up to give Milty a multi-year contract. If you think Milton's agent was fielding 3-year (or even 2-year) deals from multiple teams, I don't know what to tell you.
11-20-2009, 03:34 PM
<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->Teams aren't exactly lining up to give Milty a multi-year contract. If you think Milton's agent was fielding 3-year (or even 2-year) deals from multiple teams, I don't know what to tell you.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, your scenario is far more likely. Jim Hendry, whose only job is to pay attention to the baseball market, KNEW the best offer out there was 2/13, but decided to tack on an additional 17 million and one more year, apparently just to piss off fans. Subsequently, no one in the Cubs organization raised their hand and mentioned that we were doubling the only other offer out there, because, well, I'm not sure why, but that is clearly what happened. We know for certain that no one out there was willing to give him a 3 year deal because no baseball message boards have reported it. Oh, and just to add to your logic, teams only had ONE chance to offer Milty a multi-year contract, and that was after he spent 2007 with a blown out knee and played in only 60 games. Interestingly, he did get a raise even after that.
I wish that I believed in Fate. I wish I didn't sleep so late. I used to be carried in the arms of cheerleaders.
11-20-2009, 03:40 PM
<!--quoteo(post=69802:date=Nov 20 2009, 01:34 PM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Nov 20 2009, 01:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Oh, and just to add to your logic, teams only had ONE chance to offer Milty a multi-year contract, and that was after he spent 2007 with a blown out knee and played in only 60 games. Interestingly, he did get a raise even after that.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're missing my point. It's clear that Milty wears out his welcome after a year -- all you have to do is look at the back of his baseball card. I'm sure you're right, though. Bradley's agent was probably so busy fighting off potential suitors for his oft-injured batshit-crazy outfielder, that he accidentally took far less money and years for his client than he could have if he simply took the time and sifted through the massive pile of offers he was getting. 
11-20-2009, 03:50 PM
I'm sure the truth lies somewhere in the middle of the above arguments, but it's hard to imagine that Hendry simply offered a teeny tiny bit more than the competition for Bradley, Strap, and Miles. It just does not compute.
11-20-2009, 06:07 PM
<!--quoteo(post=69804:date=Nov 20 2009, 01:40 PM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Nov 20 2009, 01:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=69802:date=Nov 20 2009, 01:34 PM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Nov 20 2009, 01:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Oh, and just to add to your logic, teams only had ONE chance to offer Milty a multi-year contract, and that was after he spent 2007 with a blown out knee and played in only 60 games. Interestingly, he did get a raise even after that.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're missing my point. It's clear that Milty wears out his welcome after a year -- all you have to do is look at the back of his baseball card. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm not disputing that. I'm telling you that the number of times he moved from team to team was because other teams traded for him, including one time in which the A's seemed to think he was worth Andre Ethier. If simply moving from team to team due to trades is a red light, then for God's sake, let's cut Ted Lilly now. 4 teams in 5 years. <!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->I'm sure you're right, though. Bradley's agent was probably so busy fighting off potential suitors for his oft-injured batshit-crazy outfielder, that he accidentally took far less money and years for his client than he could have if he simply took the time and sifted through the massive pile of offers he was getting.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--> Great snark, but it only works if I actually made the claim that people were climbing over each other to sign Bradley. Or if I insanely claimed that Bradley took a cut to play here. Of course, I never made either claim. In college, I learned that this is known as a "straw man" argument. You are making a "straw man" argument. Here is a good definition of a "straw man" argument This is a definition of a straw man argument which is what Butch made I, on the other hand, didn't have to resort to making a "straw man" argument. As the ONLY logical explanations for Hendry giving a guy a 30 million dollar deal when the only other competition was 12 million is: 1: He knew about the 12 million, and for no discernible reason almost tripled it. 2: He didn't know about the 12 million, and therefore knew less about the market than bloggers and message board posters. I find neither of those explanations plausible. As Rok said, it's possible no one else offered him 30, but I simply don't believe 12/2 was the only competition. Which is why I originally stated that we don't KNOW what the market was, and can't go by blog posts for the truth.
I wish that I believed in Fate. I wish I didn't sleep so late. I used to be carried in the arms of cheerleaders.
11-20-2009, 06:14 PM
BT.
You can be kinda scary. I think you're right... but scary.
11-20-2009, 06:36 PM
BT -- now you're just being a dick. I know what a fucking straw man argument is, but thanks for explaining it to me *and* providing the link. That was helpful.
Do you disagree that Hendry has a history of overpaying free agents? Maybe he gave Bradley too many years, and too much money -- maybe not. <b>*From what I read,*</b> Bradley wasn't getting a whole lot of attention. Couple that with the fact that Hendry has a history of overpaying for free agents, is it THAT fucking ridiculous that I think he overpaid for Bradley (and for Grabow -- who this is really about)?
11-20-2009, 06:38 PM
I think if I told BT 2+2=4 he could provide such a compelling argument that it equals 5 that I would probably believe him. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif[/img]
I picture a pissed-off Amazon bitch; uncontrollable, disobedient, boldly resisting any kind of emotional shackles...angrily begging for more ejaculate. -KB
Showing your teeth is a sign of weakness in primates. Whenever someone smiles at me, all I see is a chimpanzee begging for its life. - Dwight RIP Sarge
11-20-2009, 06:41 PM
<!--quoteo(post=69821:date=Nov 20 2009, 04:38 PM:name=Jody)-->QUOTE (Jody @ Nov 20 2009, 04:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I think if I told BT 2+2=4 he could provide such a compelling argument that it equals 5 that I would probably believe him. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif[/img]<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
it's the bald head. it makes him irresistible and compelling.
Some men are born mediocre, some men achieve mediocrity, and some men have mediocrity thrust upon them.
11-20-2009, 06:50 PM
What has turned BT, perhaps the funniest human I have ever met in person, to suddenly becoming so hostile?
Dude, I love you, and you're probably close to right about Bradley. As many of us have said, getting Milt himself wasn't the bitch...it was Jim's contract. Still, I really have no major beef with Bradley's deal. What I hate are the 1,000 paper-cut deals (like this idiotic Grabow waste of millions) where Jim gives 3 or 4 million to a guy who's MLB average, then claims poverty later (like when he had to jettison that...what was his name? Dee Flower, or something).
There's nothing better than to realize that the good things about youth don't end with youth itself. It's a matter of realizing that life can be renewed every day you get out of bed without baggage. It's tough to get there, but it's better than the dark thoughts. -Lance
11-20-2009, 09:39 PM
<!--quoteo(post=69820:date=Nov 20 2009, 04:36 PM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Nov 20 2009, 04:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->BT -- now you're just being a dick. I know what a fucking straw man argument is, but thanks for explaining it to me *and* providing the link. That was helpful.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Butch, you totally distorted my argument, and I called you on it. That's not being a dick. That's internet arguing. To be honest, the link was meant to be light hearted, hence the rather lengthy description. <!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->Do you disagree that Hendry has a history of overpaying free agents? Maybe he gave Bradley too many years, and too much money -- maybe not. <b>*From what I read,*</b> Bradley wasn't getting a whole lot of attention. Couple that with the fact that Hendry has a history of overpaying for free agents, is it THAT fucking ridiculous that I think he overpaid for Bradley (and for Grabow -- who this is really about)?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hendry does have a history of overpaying. I'm not arguing that. I WAS arguing that it seems kind of insane to damn him for facts not only not in evidence, but almost certainly untrue if you think about it. Put another way. If you say signing Bradley didn't work out, I won't argue with you. If you say signing Bradley didn't work out and Hendry only did it because Bradley gave him a hand job while they were out to dinner, I'll probably argue with you. <!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->What has turned BT, perhaps the funniest human I have ever met in person, to suddenly becoming so hostile?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm not hostile at all. If I start calling you names, THEN you'll see hostility.
I wish that I believed in Fate. I wish I didn't sleep so late. I used to be carried in the arms of cheerleaders.
11-20-2009, 10:31 PM
<!--quoteo(post=69762:date=Nov 20 2009, 10:31 AM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Nov 20 2009, 10:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Hendry has no sense of what the market is for certain players. Bradley had one other team offering him more than a 1-year deal (the Rays -- 2/13). Why the fuck did he offer him 3/30? Who was he bidding against? Same deal with Jock Jones. Same deal here. How about Aaron Fucking Miles? I think there's a good chance that Miles doesn't land a major league contract if Hendry didn't snatch him up.
Nobody was going to give up a first round pick for Grabow, so there was absolutely NO reason to not offer him arbitration. Either he accepts, and we sign him for a year or we work out a cheaper deal. This better be Hendry's last year with this organization. I'm fed up.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--> you can say the same thing about soriano too.
Wang.
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